Both. Cannibalism is normal "fair game" in the species. Is a main obstacle in octopus farms

"Nobody knows how much they take to hatch but is probably several years" is just another example of wild bad extrapolation.

Have they found the Megalodon yet?

Yes, I suspect both. Cannibalism is an efficient way to divert resources to the offspring with the highest chance of survival for some species. But many animals also practice cannibalism only in captivity, and the increased stress and density both seem like they would promote that.

I notice this with the spiders in my house. There will be loads of the little spindly ones in my bathroom. Some are quite close to each other. Then one morning I'll go in and suddenly there will be half as many and the ones remaining will be suspiciously larger.

I learned this from Seaman lol https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/dreamcast/198567-seaman/faqs/8...

“During your next visit, you will find that your Gillmen begin to use the antennae on their heads to suck the blood of the other Gillmen. While this may seem harsh, it is nature's way- survival of the fittest- and provides another step for Seaman to cross in its evolution. At first, they will probably only kill eachother until 4 are left, but in anotherday only 2 will be left from natural selection.”

I'm reminded of my kids' Triops experiments. Its a joy to watch them hatch - not so much to watch them eat each other over a week or two, until .. finally .. there is only one Big Fat One remaining in the tank ..

Valuable life lessons, that one.

I had Triops as a kid and never observed cannibalism. Is your tank big enough?

Yes it was quite big enough, was the kit that included the 'large tank', and I'm very surprised you didn't observe it because we have done the experiment a number of times and always get a Big Fat One at the end. The banana- and fairy- shrimp population is harvested first, but when they are gone the Triops turn on each other like some kind of damp gladiator orgy. Its really wild to watch.

We've moved on to Hydrae now, they are also quite battle-worn organisms in our house-hold.

I think back in the day it was recommended to have at least 5 liters per adult triops. My tank was around 100l and I usually had at least a handful of them. Always females only; the males somehow never made it. They would only get eaten by their peers once they died of other causes. Maybe yours were lacking some protein in their diet?

First time I hear of anybody keeping Hydrae as pets.

We fed them pretty well; I've never heard of Triops that weren't cannibalistic.

The Hydrae are exceptionally interesting, we just collect glass jars of lake water and watch them grow over a few weeks before releasing them .. its quite an adventure watching the budding occur, seeing the growth, watching the nematodes being chomped on ..

Maybe I need to refresh my memory. I should have some eggs lying around still.

The nematodes also come with the lake water?

>The nematodes also come with the lake water?

In our hydrae experiments, yes, they came with the lake water .. you can see some pictures here if you're interested, there's a video of the battle between nematode and hydra as well - I did this experiment with my kids many times over the years, its always fascinating to see what grows and what eats and what stays behind ..

https://imgur.com/user/waterplusalgaeequalshydra

Bonus retro-computing stuff there too.. ;)

>Triops eggs

Let me know how it goes! I love the Triops arena ..

It's probably also because Octopus is delicious.

reminds me how I always get a kick out of people that draw their line at what they will eat based off of that thing’s intelligence.

They’ll loudly proclaim the rest of us are just anthropomorphizing until specific institutions tell them that a particular animal is intelligent. And then they’re like “I cant eat that” and assume the rest of us a) didn't know and b) were operating by the same consumptive standards

farcical, since their super late enlightenment makes them the dumb ones

So you get a kick out of judging people being open-minded and listening to scientists?

I get a kick out of them needing that to dictate how they choose to collaborate with other beings

When the rest of us didn’t need that

I love how you think you're representative of the "rest of us". A phrase you've used twice now.

Clearly you don't talk to other people and think your views are in the majority rather than a tiny minority.

Cute.

yeah I don't talk to any other people

do you have a specific rebuttal to this? "I get a kick out of them needing that to dictate how they choose to collaborate with other beings"

Yeah, go into any tapas restaurant and watch tons of people order octopus.

Are you really this unobservant and poorly informed about the other humans you share the world with? Or do you just enjoy being contrarian on forums?

We're normalized to eating meat and there's a lot of subtle social pressure to not "rock the boat" on things that are widely considered normal and acceptable.

I have a lot of sympathy for individuals trying to reconcile these flashes from their conscience with "normal" social behavior, and struggling through the cognitive dissonance that results from it.

I have very little for just taking open glee in the emotional distress people experience while going through that process? Or calming your own dissonance by nihilistically avoiding the question? Better a late and compromised enlightenment then a proudly never one.

am I projecting? I don’t think so, it doesn’t satisfy that criteria

I think we can make fun of people that just watched an Octopus documentary on Netflix and act like the rest of us didn’t know they’re neurons

I don't see how this is dissonant to you? I will occasionally eat beef, I'll never eat octopus.

I helped my farm friends raise calves for 4H in junior high. They're dumb as bricks, don't think they knew they were food even on the way to slaughter. So on the whole, as long as you take care of them, they enjoy life and you enjoy a burger, minimal suffering.

If something is intelligent and understands it's going to be food, and that causes it to suffer for its entire life, it tips the scales quite significantly. You already live by this assumption if you are vegan; you choose to eat things with no brain over things with a brain. Being an asshole over people drawing the same line as you but in a slightly different spot just makes you sound like the fool.

If a person is going to consume animal protein, trying to minimize the pain/suffering of the animals being consumed doesn't strike me as "farcical". And it seems reasonable to posit that a smart animal is more likely to suffer than a dumb animal (for whatever definitions of smart and dumb).

My only issue with this is the more we learn about both animals and plants, the more complex they both appear to be. Reductio ad absurdum - we can't eat anything because everything is smarter than we thought. The only truly safe answer is to bio-engineer humans to use photosynthesis.

> Reductio ad absurdum - we can't eat anything because everything is smarter than we thought.

Which is my leading criticism of the idea.

If I'm like "hey that being is clearly reacting to stimuli that could hamper its self preservation and it is aiming to avoid that" and it takes another decade for Neil Degrasse Tyson or somebody you respect to tell that person the same thing about, say... plants, then what's the point of listening to that person ever?

Like, we were allll eating plants - in this example - with the same observation that the anti-suffering person willingly ignored and lorded over us, and now they move their own goal post while acting like we're only eating plants because we're oblivious to their reactions to harmful stimuli. again, example. replace plants with octopus if you need to.

but its an ideological line that doesn't seem based in anything except an arbitrary line. I can go along with desiring sustainable practices. no factory farming but preservation and keeping populations stable. but "omg it can think and feel!?" just isn't something I can be surprised about to draw a line at that. amoebas avoid negative stimuli. there's no need to gain consensus species by species.