News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:News Is Bad for You by brigadier132 on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @09:40AM (#36600315)
> Plus it keeps me informed/shapes my perception of my Government and how I intend to vote.

Why do you need to have a constant "perception" of government outside of election day? Politics and politicians are not that complicated, you have a few options a few times a year. It takes an hour or less of research to determine who to vote for. Outside of elections you are pretty impotent as an individual.

I don't consciously seek out political news and whenever I'm exposed to it I immediately see how the journalist is trying to manipulate me. Reading hackernews and reading financial news is enough to inform me of everything political that is happening that is importance.

Re:News Is Bad for You by eropple on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @09:50AM (#36600469)
> Outside of elections you are pretty impotent as an individual.

This is untrue, in most parts of America at least; there are more levels of government that affect you than national ones and I find that folks who make this claim generally aren't aware how to effect change or are unwilling to expend the effort.

You can get pretty far just by talking to people.

Re:News Is Bad for You by brigadier132 on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @09:54AM (#36600505)
> there are more levels of government that affect you than national ones and I find that folks who make this claim generally aren't aware how to effect change or are unwilling to expend the effort

Well you are partially right but also I live in a major metropolitan area. I don't think politics is an area where I can really effect change and I have so much going on with my life that I am also unwilling to expend the effort.

Re:News Is Bad for You by eropple on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @10:06AM (#36600685)
And that's fine, it's a choice you can make (we do not put the duty of being an informed and engaged citizen on the body politic), but it doesn't make what you said true. Just true for you. It's not at all uncommon for engaged people to leave significant dents in metropolitan local politics by picking up a phone or by showing up.

I find discouraging others from fully engaging in the civic process much more disappointing than choosing not to fully engage oneself, to be honest.

Re:News Is Bad for You by kiawe_fire on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @09:59AM (#36600593)
Additionally, the news does not present fact-centered, honest information about your government.

It’s sensationalized, biased, partisan, and framed in an inflammatory manner to make you angry or ignite passion to make you vote a certain way.

It shapes people’s votes because, just like a politician’s own advertisement, that’s the goal.

Regardless of what your choice of news source is or your political party of choice, likely half of the outrageous issues being shouted by the news right now are irrelevant or blown out of proportion.

I’m also increasingly finding that the most important piece of any democracy, isn’t who you vote in, but your willingness to stand by your fellow citizens (including those who voted the other way) in holding the person that you voted in accountable for their results or lack thereof.

And that requires a certain amount of empathy, intellectual honesty, and willingness to reject confirmation bias, that the news, as it exists, simply will not give you.

Re:News Is Bad for You by robocat on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @10:30AM (#36600971)
One of the key parts of democracy is being able to vote people out. Think of any authoritarian country, and how much the people would love to get rid of some arsehole at the top. The US has managed to vote out presidents that have wanted to become dictators!
Re:News Is Bad for You by goodbyesf on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:07AM (#36601466)
> One of the key parts of democracy is being able to vote people out.

The problem is you can vote people out. But the same two parties remain.

> Think of any authoritarian country, and how much the people would love to get rid of some arsehole at the top.

'Authoritarian' countries exist because most of the people support it. And when most of the people are against it, authoritarian countries change.

> The US has managed to vote out presidents that have wanted to become dictators!

Which presidents wanted to be dictators? If someone wanted to be a dictator, they wouldn't run to be president in the first place.

Re:News Is Bad for You by eropple on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:34AM (#36601875)
> The problem is you can vote people out. But the same two parties remain.

Calling them "the same parties" is close to hiding the ball. Those parties have shifted and diverged in multiple directions over their history. See the Civil Rights era for an obvious one--or the rapid separation of both current parties, today. The generally-socdem push of the left wing of the Democratic Party is working to change policy and position. (The reactionary push of the right wing of the Republican Party is working even more dramatically.)

> Which presidents wanted to be dictators? If someone wanted to be a dictator, they wouldn't run to be president in the first place.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Why would they not run? Plenty of authoritarians all over the world and throughout history have come to power through democratic means!

As for "which President", Donald Trump comes to mind for very obvious reasons around attempting to retain power through extralegal means. Whether he has the functioning cognitive capacity to understand what a dictatorship is an open question, but it does not change that he attempted to retain executive control via force and fiat.

Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:33AM (#36601864)
It's funny sometimes seeing what people reveal about themselves unintentionally when they rail against something; if the news is all of those bad things for you, then you're not working very hard to understand it.

"News" is literally just "what's happening around me". There's no bias in that. It's just a set of facts. News media outlets can be biased/partisan/etc. but bias doesn't just fall out of the sky to hold us hostage. You can account for it.

Re:News Is Bad for You by brigadier132 on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:44AM (#36602046)
No its not whats happening around me. Its shocking things people who want me to look at ads choose to show me from all over the world
Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:48AM (#36602122)
That's news media, not news. The media reports the news, in ways you may dislike, but the actual content they're sharing with you is rooted in literal events that took place.
Re:News Is Bad for You by brigadier132 on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:15PM (#36602565)
Well fine, you win the argument over semantics. Everyone here is referring to news media using the term news. Now that we've come to this understanding that what we mean by news is news media then my point stands.
Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:21PM (#36602643)
No, they aren’t. They’re discussing whether or not knowing things is worth it, which is completely different.

Your point doesn’t make sense once you realize there’s a difference between news and news media.

Re:News Is Bad for You by kiawe_fire on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:10PM (#36603491)
The problem is, the original article itself doesn’t really differentiate. It DOES call out longer form pieces like books or magazines as better alternatives (suggesting the article is primarily referring to news media) but also implies not jumping on the latest story and waiting for those that outlast the news cycle (which would suggest the article is also about “knowing things” in so much as we don’t need to know all things immediately all the time).

I don’t think anyone is making the reductionist argument that “knowing things isn’t worth it”.

But our time and attention is finite, and the things the news media is directing our time and attention toward learning is arguably not valuable.

I would also challenge the notion that news media is nothing but a gateway to raw news with bias that we can account for. Most people don’t account for it, most media outlets don’t account for it, and it may not even be possible for it to truly be accounted for.

News media can and does report incomplete facts that can change an entire perception of an issue. They can and do report non facts as well. Apologies and corrections are rare and buried, usually bookended by the next wrong things to be reported.

If we (a) define news media and news as separate entities entirely, and (b) define news as “something that happened”, then it even furthers the argument that news media itself is unworthy of time and attention, even in seeking news as raw facts. Because news media does such a poor job of reporting facts, the facts end up too mangled to be usable.

At this point the question becomes “can the bias actually be accounted for” (IMO, it cannot be), and if not, “how do we get facts outside of the news media”.

Which is still tangentially related to the original article in so much as we’re still discussing which news (facts) matter and where do you get them from… but in almost no case is the answer “the news media”.

Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @02:35PM (#36605003)
One question; who introduces bias into reporting?
Re:News Is Bad for You by kiawe_fire on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @07:10PM (#36608512)
Potentially anyone involved in the making of the report.

Each part of the process, from investigating and gathering facts, writing, and presentation, presents an opportunity for bias to be introduced, be it implicitly or explicitly.

Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @08:11PM (#36609112)
What phrase, if you had to choose one, would you describe the group of people who do this work? The work, as you clearly explain here, is how bias gets introduced?

Maybe, perhaps, news media?

Re:News Is Bad for You by falcolas on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @10:18AM (#36600823)
Being aware of current bills proposed and being voted on (at local, state, and federal levels) lets you contact your representatives and voice your opinion; lets you impact which bills are passed.

This kind of action does have an effect, and the effect is significant when many people do it.

Much like how participation matters during elections.

Re:News Is Bad for You by randomdata on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @10:26AM (#36600917)
> Why do you need to have a constant "perception" of government outside of election day?

Election day is the least significant day in politics. It is merely the hiring process, and who you hire doesn't matter all that much (within reason). Your actual job as the employer starts after you have selected an employee. The onus is on you to direct and guide the employee you selected. If you don't know what is needed for your organization on an ongoing basis, how can you serve as their boss?

Or, of course, you can pray that you chose a mind reader and ignoring them will lead to satisfactory results. However, I think all employers will tell you that if you disappear into the night and leave employees to their own devices, you won't be impressed with the results.

> Outside of elections you are pretty impotent as an individual.

Being the boss in general leaves you pretty impotent, frankly. This is as true in government as it is in enterprise. Employees aren't robots. It takes an incredible amount of work to keep the workers aligned on the vision, and against competing leadership interests.

But it is not impossible to overcome. In fact, the wealthy among us who feel they don't have time to be the boss directly will hire other parties (a.k.a. lobbyists) to guide the workers for them. If the employees cannot be tamed, that practice would not take place. Of course, like everything in life, if you are not so well off you're going to have to do the work yourself.

Nobody ever said that democracy was easy. There is good reason why some people in the world stand by other political systems – because they don't want to put in the hard, hard work of democracy. But if democracy is the system you and your fellow neighbours have chosen, it is the one you have to accept, hard work and all.

Re:News Is Bad for You by JediWing on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:01AM (#36601382)
> Why do you need to have a constant "perception" of government outside of election day?

Because you leave yourself more susceptible to recency bias, and the prevailing media narrative on election day rather than continually evaluating the actions politicians take in real-time with proper context, evaluating the raw facts for yourself.

Re:News Is Bad for You by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:08AM (#36601485)
> Why do you need to have a constant "perception" of government outside of election day?

If you know why you need it on election day, you know why you need it the rest of the time, because voting is only a small part of effective democratic engagement (and even if it was the whole of it, its inconvenient to have to cram and process a couple years of information with necessary context the day of the election.)

> you have a few options a few times a year.

You have a lot more options and a lot more effect other times: democratic engagement outside of elections is a big part of what decides what the choices are in elections.

Re:News Is Bad for You by Zetice on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#36601796)
Learning for the first time what the issues are (or who the people are) to be voted on day-of is a great way to get manipulated.
Re:News Is Bad for You by s1artibartfast on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:35AM (#36601889)
I think it is important and in fact moral to spend some more time understanding politics, but still don't think news is a good way to do it. Reading a few books and discussing topics With Friends will do far more than sifting through countless shallow news stories.
Re:News Is Bad for You by theshrike79 on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:35PM (#36602863)
Especially, according to actual US politicians, people who cosplay as hardcore hardline party line people are easy to negotiate with when the cameras are off.

What you get in the news is a performance, either carefully crafted or off the cuff crazy.

The only way to "shape a perception of government" is to check how your representatives actually voted for different issues. Talk is talk, votes are fact.