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Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by rchaud on Monday July 03, 2023 @05:12PM (#36578913)
I'm not looking at the iPhone in a vaccuum. I'm also taking into consideration other things Apple has inexplicably delayed for multiple years:

- support for mouse input

- a native file manager app (2017!)

- pressure-sensitive pens and screens (~ 4 years after Samsung)

- Multiple apps on same screen (2019!)

None of these are things that take years to get right. Apple commentators simply get lazy and recycle this iPod-era talking point.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by troupo on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @09:42AM (#36586529)
> a native file manager app (2017!)

What would you do with one on a device where every app is heavily sandboxed and there's no common file system?

> pressure-sensitive pens and screens (~ 4 years after Samsung)

When they did release this, no competition was even close to the precision and fidelity.

When Apple releases something later than competition it's usually (but not always) justified and results in a better execution

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by cxr on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @03:18PM (#36591400)
> What would you do with one on a device where every app is heavily sandboxed and there's no common file system?

Access each app's sandbox to move/copy/exfiltrate the data contained there, for whatever reason the user desires. Not much different from the way file managers are used on traditional desktop systems.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by troupo on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @04:17PM (#36592004)
> Access each app's sandbox to move/copy/exfiltrate the data contained there, for whatever reason the user desires.

That breaks the security promise that apps don't have direct access to other apps' data.

There's a reason you can't even access photos without an explicit user prompt.

> Not much different from the way file managers are used on traditional desktop systems

Traditional desktop systems never had heavily sandboxed apps with no outside access

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by cxr on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @04:56PM (#36592416)
> That breaks the security promise that apps don't have direct access to other apps' data.

No it doesn't. Giving the user the ability to get their hands on their own data is not the same as giving other apps direct access to it.

> Traditional desktop systems never had heavily sandboxed apps with no outside access

That's completely orthogonal.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by troupo on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:34AM (#36595888)
> Giving the user the ability to get their hands on their own data

Does the user have the need for that on an iPhone?

I don't think a single app on my phone has any files I'd ever need access to

> That's completely orthogonal.

Of course it's not orthogonal

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by cxr on Thursday July 06, 2023 @07:10PM (#36624585)
> Of course it's not orthogonal

You questioned whether there was a use case for file managers when apps do not share a "common file system" and are "heavily sandboxed", and stipulated that providing one would break the security promise of not giving apps "direct access to other apps' data".

Whether desktop systems have traditionally sandboxed their apps to the same degree is, in fact, orthogonal. It's a separate question entirely.

> Does the user have the need for that on an iPhone?

Sorry, but when I spot somebody moving the goalposts (and failing to acknowledge when one they staked out earlier was satisfied), my approach is not to indulge them by continuing to respond as if they're just like anyone else having a discussion in good faith. Instead, I say, "you are moving the goalposts; you are not asking in good faith". This is monumentally helpful in making economical use of my time.

Re:Apple forced to make major cuts to Vision Pro headset pro... by haswell on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @03:40PM (#36591619)
Regarding looking at the iPhone in a vacuum, I was referring to the iPhone gen 1 vs. the iPhone product line as a whole. The point was that the claims don't make sense unless you look at just the first generation of the product, which was clearly not Apple's vision.

Regarding other features, I don't understand the connection you're trying to draw here, or how they serve as counterpoints. All these anecdotes point to is where Apple has chosen to focus resources and in what order. Having worked on a product team, there are dozens of "obvious" things that get cut from every release. This doesn't undermine the claim that

Mouse input on what? iPhone? Is this a thing?

A native file manager is a feature that applies to a small subset of users. Do some people want it? Sure! Does a lack of it somehow imply Apple is failing? I think that's hard to argue. Anecdotally, as a highly technical user, I rarely if ever touch that app. I don't think most of my friends/family know it exists.

Multiple apps on the same screen ... on the only tablet in the market worth considering. Again, this is a gripe about roadmap order and not an effective argument against the core claim.

And core to the claim is the fact that Apple is often late to the party.

> None of these are things that take years to get right. Apple commentators simply get lazy and recycle this iPod-era talking point.

I don't think anyone is making the claim that these things take years to get right. More interesting than this would be to examine what they chose to ship instead.

If you don't believe the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, MacBook Air and AirPods are market-defining products, we'll have to just agree to disagree. It's not as if the iPod was the last product to resemble the "Apple does it better" pattern.