News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by duringmath on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:41PM (#36525697)
There's no imbalance in this particular situation: newspapers produce content, search engines/ social network surface and link to it.

What's happening here is that publishers and their owners somehow figured these pesky internet wiz kids owe them more money.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pyrale on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:04PM (#36525955)
> There's no imbalance here: newspapers produce content, search engines/social networks surface and link to it.

As evidenced by the average RoI at Google compared to news organisations.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by tempestn on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:07PM (#36526718)
I expect you'll find that discontinuing their news linking service in Canada has very little effect on Google's profitability.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pyrale on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:10PM (#36526753)
I agree that Canada should probably have targeted their ad service rather than which link they publish.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by throwuwu on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:12PM (#36526784)
One is the world’s dominant gateway to the internet, the others are a handful of websites.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by amf12 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:22PM (#36526917)
> As evidenced by the average RoI at Google compared to news organisations.

Not a good metric.

The ROI difference is because of both entities being in different industries, and other things unrelated to the power balance. We can similarly compare the ROI of a news organization and say a restaurant and lament that there is an imbalance of power.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by tenpies on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:23PM (#36526186)
The nefarious (and probably correct) take is that this is intentional by the Trudeau Liberals.

If you obliterate 30% of every news media's revenue you make them even more dependent on the Liberals funding them. This is on top of the existing "Support Canadian Journalism" fund that the Liberal government distributes in a completely "unbiased" way.

Put simply: Trudeau wants absolute control of Canadian media. Bill C-18 is the first of three to achieve this objective. This grants them more control by making them the major source of income for all media. The next one will be about funding Canadian content (which the Liberals will define and select). The last will be about censoring and de-platforming hate (which they will also define and select). When Trudeau is done - and he will finish because the NDP will support him no matter what - Canada's media landscape will look something like a blend between North Korea and China.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pschuegr on Friday June 30, 2023 @12:46AM (#36530606)
Care to provide verifiable details and a timeline for "look like North Korea and China"?

Because otherwise this smells like sensationalism to me. Hate is already defined in Canadian law wrt hate crimes, btw, and that predates the Trudeau-monster by decades.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by osigurdson on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:40AM (#36530939)
With out a verifiable “roadmap to tyranny”, must we necessarily conclude that everything is fine?
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pschuegr on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:01AM (#36532847)
"Everything is fine" is a position taken by nobody afaict. But if someone is going to make brash claims they better have more than just bluster otherwise they're actively worsening discourse IMO.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by osigurdson on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:55AM (#36535974)
What claims can be made with current information in your opinion? Is the Trudeau regime , just another run of the mill Canadian government or possibly something more sinister (or at least more corrupt).
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pschuegr on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:35PM (#36545798)
I don't claim to be super-knowledgeable on this topic but IMO the current government is marginally competent and so far I'd say they seem about as corrupt as the Liberals normally are, which is to say: unacceptably. I'm not sure they're any worse than previous iterations, but history will decide. The emergency measures act stuff seems like it was mishandled to me. I find the leadership to be heavy-handed with the virtue signalling, but they're playing to the crowd in the same way that the Conservatives play to the anti-woke crowd - I despise it on both sides. They're doing a whole pile of nothing about healthcare and the housing situation, and I think it'll cost them the next election.

In a world with better options I'd never vote Liberal, but since the Conservatives can't seem to come up with a coherent environmental plan to save their lives (and have abandoned what was originally their carbon tax plan because "The Liberals like it so it must be bad"), and the best leader they can come up with was encouraging people to buy crypto right before it crashed, they still seem like the better option. And I say this with a sour taste in my mouth.

What's your take?

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by osigurdson on Saturday July 01, 2023 @05:55PM (#36555695)
My take on carbon tax is it is mostly an income redistribution scheme which moves wealth from the middle to lower classes while reducing the size of the middle class.

If it does have a material global impact on carbon emissions it will only be a result of somehow shaming other countries to reduce their own emissions. While I can’t find any estimate of how much the carbon tax will reduce emissions, our empty country only has 1.89% to work with. So the forest fires are not going to stop as a result of the tax alone.

I suspect what will happen is other countries will innovate their way out of the problem while Canadians embrace pointless atonement leaving the country weaker and poorer as a result.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by pschuegr on Saturday July 01, 2023 @10:59PM (#36557782)
Entirely plausible, Canada as a country coasts on our relative affluence and resource base far too much, I'd like to see us pushing money into R&D for technological solutions as well.

I know what you're saying about our contribution to emissions, but I feel like the most basic principle of good faith when you're trying to get another party to do something like this is to deal with your own shit first, otherwise it's just hypocrisy. Every country in the world can look at their own contributions and say "well, most of it isn't our fault, so why should we fix it until somebody else does?". Rightly or wrongly, Canada likes to think of itself as a world leader, so let's put our big boy pants on and step up.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by osigurdson on Sunday July 02, 2023 @12:00PM (#36562715)
“Big boy pants” and “stepping up” are meaningless phrases intended to elicit and irrational emotional response. Let’s instead focus on the phrase “solve the problem” and work backward from there. The current carbon tax scheme does very little to concretely solve anything - entirely hinging on factors outside of our control such as the ability to influence China.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by Majromax on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:13PM (#36526798)
> There's no imbalance here: newspapers produce content, search engines/social networks surface and link to it.

The imbalance is that as platforms, newspapers cross-subsidize content. Interesting headlines attract readers to the newspaper, but once in hand readers are likely to continue reading the other, less unique articles. (See also why newspapers carry sports scores and comics). An investigative report is by itself a money-loser, but the overall effect on net readership is a win.

Aggregators break newspapers as platforms. Google et al provide extra discoverability for a single article, certainly, but then there's no lock-in to keep readers on the (now) website, reading more and seeing other ads. Headline-and-summary view might even result in zero-click satisfaction, denying the outlet even that first impression.

This might just be a change that the industry must adapt to, in the same way that television and radio news took over the news-breaking role. However, it is more than a trivial threat to the fundamental business model of a news outlet; it's not (just) superficial greed.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by tensor on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:26PM (#36526967)
Personally I'd be happy to see the ad driving model die. It used to be that people bought newspapers or didn't read them. They still had some ads, granted, but far less intrusive than today's web ads with their colours and animations.

I'm huge into supporting good journalism, and think we need some sort of intervention here. But I've very very strongly opposed to this new law. If news sites want to charge for their content they should put it behind a pay gate.

I pay for news, but insultingly they STILL feed me ads. There is no tier that I can pay for that will eliminate the ads. I really don't have much sympathy for them given their refusal to somehow adapt to the times and offer service that users feel valuable enough to pay for.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by weeblewobble on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:30PM (#36530202)
It used to be that you could get a paper for a quarter out of a machine on the street. That quarter covered printing and delivery. the newspaper had a classified ads section (plus inline ads, plus ad inserts) which actually funded the people who make the newspaper.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by tsimionescu on Friday June 30, 2023 @02:29AM (#36531262)
Not to mention they often had a rich owner who ran them at a loss if need be to ensure they keep being friendly to him/her when needed.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by j16sdiz on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:06AM (#36530717)
Because what you paid is far less ( think 10x) than what it takes to run.

Traditional paper-based newspaper is ad-supported too.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by Majromax on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:24AM (#36551101)
> If news sites want to charge for their content they should put it behind a pay gate.

This is the 'trade journalism' model. Here, good journalism still exists, but the price is more than most people would afford. People buy trade journals when the news is important, with direct financial implications that justify the cost of admission.

General journalism, however, is something close to a public service. It's better in a vague, hand-wavy way to have an educated citizen body that's informed about current affairs, but few individual citizens derive much value from their own knowledge. (This is also why people tend to gravitate towards 'entertaining' news, by some definition. Come for the sports scores, stay for current events.)

In this model, the benefit of news is externalized. I benefit when other people are educated. This is a classic market failure, and it suggests that a reader-pays framework will underprovide news.

Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by sroussey on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:51PM (#36527258)
The can post a robots.txt file to say not to index.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by GeekyBear on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:56PM (#36527314)
How do they say "You can index the story in your search engine, but you cannot borrow the text or images of our content for use on your own news site or info panels"?
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by veddan on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:22PM (#36527634)
I think you can do this with

  <meta name="googlebot-news" content="nosnippet">
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by jen20 on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:31AM (#36533724)
Why should one have to do this? The slippery slope of what is ok goes straight from this to copyright laundering via LLMs.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by wvenable on Friday June 30, 2023 @11:45PM (#36546285)
Why shouldn't they? This is basic fair use. Google is giving them an out they don't have to.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by GeekyBear on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:48AM (#36549107)
Fair Use isn't a thing in Canada.
Re:Canada’s Bill C-18 and Our Search and News Products by benedictevans on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:32PM (#36528281)
Google and Meta (or Twitter or anyone else) don't 'borrow' them. Websites explicitly declare what image and snippet they want anyone to use to summarise a link in the metadata on the web page. it's a choice by newspapers to place that image and text below the link.