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Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by orf on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:43PM (#36484762)
A lot of comments on this topic seem at odds with reality.

If you accept that it takes a lot of effort to produce what Red Hat produces and you accept that you cannot buy food with a list of your open source contributions, then the people who work for Red Hat need to be compensated in some way.

If your answer to this is that there is a big, distributed pool of people willing to do this work instead of Red Hat then you don’t believe that Red Hat adds value. But the question remains: who compensates those people?

And this big distributed pool of people ready to do free work definitely doesn’t exist already. Well, it does, but it’s just Redhat. And they are rightfully changing that.

It could be the companies they work for (like is done with the Linux Kernel), but that doesn’t exist and starting it is a pretty big undertaking.

At the end of the day the comment in the post about the anger coming from people who “do not want to pay for the time, effort and resources going into RHEL or those who want to repackage it for their own profit” rings pretty true.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by kryptiskt on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:08PM (#36485134)
Why did Red Hat's previous model stop working now, after 25 years of success? I'm not angry about what Red Hat is doing. I'm just puzzled and I suspect that its a very stupid move.

What Red Hat is doing now will probably increase their license sales in the short term. But they will do so by cannibalizing the entire Red Hat-compatible ecosystem. All the "freeloaders" provide RHEL with most of its share in the distro market. Kill them off and it will become a technical backwater, all the small and medium users will go somewhere else and there will be no on-ramp for new customers (as Red Hat is too technically different from what they have). It can take a while, they might get RHEL for their old systems but they'll go SUSE/Debian/Ubuntu for new stuff.

I'd say that they are literally doing what Travis CI and other companies have done in the past, they have no vision of growing their market anymore, now its all about cost cutting and squeezing the most out of their existing share while the music is playing. So no, I'm not angry about it, but on the other hand I can't see it as anything but a sign of irreversible decline.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by jabl on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:22PM (#36485302)
For a somewhat simplistic explanation, RHEL became very successful as a tool to replace proprietary RISC Unix servers (often running Oracle DB) with x86(-64) and Linux, offering a traditional "enterprise" support model those proprietary UNIX customers were used to. So what has changed?

1. The above market is pretty much "saturated" in the sense there aren't many proprietary UNIX systems left to convert to x86+RHEL. So not much growth potential there.

2. Oracle has their own RHEL rebuild that they aggressively(?) market to Oracle customers. And I guess it makes sense if you have a server to run Oracle DB on, to also use the Oracle RHEL rebuild to avoid the situation where you have a problem and Oracle and Redhat point fingers at each other and nobody takes charge of solving the issue.

3. Cloud. Cloud is obviously big these days, and it seems for one or another reason cloud deployments often choose some other distro than RHEL, be it one of the free rebuilds (CentOS, Alma, Rocky, OEL), or something else entirely like Ubuntu.

While I'm not privy to any RH internal info, it wouldn't surprise me if they're worried about the above trends continuing. Whether this recent change to make life for rebuilds a bit harder will materially affect anything, and if so how, remains to be seen.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by rincebrain on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:28PM (#36487207)
re:3, In a previous thread about this, someone said that RHEL only would make deals with cloud providers to run RHEL licenses prepackaged if the whole stack was RHEL, and obviously, if the cloud provider is not already running RHEL everywhere, that doesn't work out so well.

(I have no personal experience trying to run anything like this, this is purely citing a previous comment made.)

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by bonzini on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @02:12AM (#36489450)
I'll (mostly) copy my reply from there: RHEL guests are supported on RHEL host but also on Windows, ESX, Amazon and Google clouds, and a few more.

Non-RHEL hosts are only supported is Red Hat has someone to talk to at the vendor or cloud provider, so that they can debug stuff that breaks only in their environment and can't be reproduced. This is done to cannot guarantee the level of support that customers expect but very few cloud provider can provide that. I am not even sure that IBM's cloud made the short list.

On other unsupported hosts we will ask the customer to reproduce on a supported host if we think the host is the culprit.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by SSLy on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @03:54PM (#36497834)
>I am not even sure that IBM's cloud made the short list.

Probably not https://www.redhat.com/en/partners/certified-cloud-and-servi...

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by jsight on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:53PM (#36488086)
This move doesn't fundamentally fix any of those issues.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by bbatha on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @12:43AM (#36489010)
This strategy is doubling down on the real reason that 3 is killing them: price. Their pricing structure in fundamentally incompatible with cloud native workloads. We treat workloads like cattle scaling them quickly and on demand to OS counts never dreamed of decades ago.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by salawat on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @06:31AM (#36491085)
...And when you graze your Cattle on someone else's fields, you pay through the nose for it!

Best damn business innovation ever, renting people shovels to dig themselves a hole with!

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by RichardCA on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:21AM (#36494170)
It's a classic IBM strategy that goes all the way back to the old-school days of mainframes and timesharing. And they would love to bring those days back. But they can't because AWS beat them to it and now they have to live in that world.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by syslog on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @12:55AM (#36489061)
re 2) - we once fell into this marketing trap of "Oracle runs best on Oracle". If it only were true!

We had Oracle databases running on Oracle Solaris running on Oracle SPARC servers, because the bosses were convinced of the synergies. When the problems started (with Solaris zone clusters) it was a happy merry-go-round of fingerpointing between Oracle support groups.

Oracle is on a rather short list of companies I'll try to avoid doing business with if at all possible.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by raincom on Monday June 26, 2023 @06:53PM (#36486946)
Everything works within a dollar range. IBM bought Redhat for $34B; now, IBM expects returns on that investment. It is similar to the VC game: a business can stay successful generating 10 percent profit with $200M revenue; VCs come in, want huge returns. So, Redhat wants to own all enterprise market, taking over the customers of Oracle Linux, and small/medium businesses and the govt/non profit sector that uses Centos. I have no problems with Redhat going after Oracle Linux's customers. There are many small/medium businesses, research labs, schools that run HPC clusters, who use Centos. The latter set should find another solution.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by awill on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @02:12PM (#36496595)
But the model didn't stop working.

Red Hat is more profitable than ever. It's about wanting EVEN MORE.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by cyberpunk on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:48PM (#36484844)
IBM make a sheadload of money, redhat also was doing absolutely fine on support sales (up 17% in 2022, according to 'el'google) -- if they are suddenly unable to pay their developers then, sure.

I don't think anyone is particularly surprised, or will miss them much. It's just kinda sad to see what was a reasonably happy opensource success story end with a giant corporation shutting down some of their releases out of protectionism.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by orf on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:40PM (#36485540)
You’re not in their sales funnel and lots of things look healthy from the outside that actually are not.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by asmor on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:49PM (#36485636)
it seems to correlate more with the ibm acquisition
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by bonzini on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @02:14AM (#36489460)
People were expecting IBM to swallow Red Hat in 3 years. After 4 years some parts of RHEL have been opened (Fedora ELN, CentOS Stream) and some have been closed, overall I would call that a success even if IBM was behind this decision...
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by awill on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:24PM (#36500634)
You're listing CentOS Stream as something IBM created? No. That was their excuse for cancelling CentOS. If you remember, it was universally unpopular.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:50PM (#36484870)
It's interesting because if RHEL had no value add nobody would pay for it and nobody would be angry about this change. All of these angry posts are proof in a way that they are putting in valuable work.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by rektide on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:24PM (#36485322)
RHEL was only used & adopted because everyday people could use it. Then when they had jobs at their enterprise, they could bring what they knew with them.

If RHEL is only for paying people, as McGrath from thr pulpit so expounds, most people are gonna leave. The value was having a community, a good path, that extended from open source to paid support. If McGrath blows up one end of the continuum, the other end will certainly wither collapse & die. This is a deathmark. People are upset to see a vibrant world shut off and thus shut down, whatever the value/greed/whatever of the situation. A pillar of Linux has left the chat.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by gnukid on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:38PM (#36485519)
Can't everyday people use CentOS Stream?
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by mikelward on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:03PM (#36487014)
Or Fedora.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by RichardCA on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:11AM (#36494019)
Last time I tried Fedora was FC35. I came back a few months later and tried to build a kernel module, I couldn't get the RPM's for kernel-devel and kernel-headers to line up correctly.

It's exactly these kinds of fiddly details that get weaponized when you want to derail a distro. It's not easy or frictionless anymore.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by exibmer on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:02AM (#36507474)
CentOS stream isn't stable, it's a rolling distro. That's like asking "why can't people running RHEL go to Arch Linux or OpenSuSE TumbleWeed?"
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by freedomben on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:14AM (#36530772)
Oh come on, the idea that CentOS stream is on par with arch, tumbleweed, and fedora is ludicrous.

Either you don't understand what CentOS stream is, or you're being ridiculously hyperbolic.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by bayindirh on Wednesday July 12, 2023 @09:37AM (#36694321)
From an infrastructure operator's point of view, there's no practical difference.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by orf on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:46PM (#36485602)
Do everyday people need an enterprise Linux distro? Why not use one of their other everyday-people focused distributions?
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by raincom on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:16PM (#36487102)
I have a couple of CentOS vms on digital ocean, just for some mundane stuff: bouncers/proxies. I mostly work with Redhat/centos at work. So, it is easy for me to manage my personal linux machines. It is about familiarity of tools: yum/dnf, locations of config/log files, etc. Yes, I could use Fedora. I understand that Oracle is Redhat's biggest threat. Rocky is a very small player in the scheme of things.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by rektide on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @05:37PM (#36499007)
Valid notion. I don't really know the impact to top of funnel, but it seems like such a gamble to me to tighten the pipeline so much, exclude so many from starting.

It's starting to change, but for years people would look at me like I was crazy for running Debian/unstable aka Debian/sid on my machines/personal servers. Being willing to have volatile systems is a big barrier. Only having "dogfood this wip" or "pay us" as the two options is a radical ask, one that doesn't really seem survivable to me (rh/centos won't go away, but their mindshare seems likely to implode to me).

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by awill on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:29PM (#36500673)
Speaking for myself, I have a home server. I bought it almost 9 years ago, and the server (haswell-grade xeon) is still perfectly ok for home-server stuff, like a NAS and plex. When I set up the server, I picked CentOS 7 because I wanted a simple, boring OS that got updates for a long time. Sure, I could have used Debian or Ubuntu, and done an OS upgrade every 3-5 years, but I just wanted to avoid it.

Last year, with RH cancelling CentOS, I switched to Rocky expecting another 8+ years of updates. We'll see how that pans out.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by jacooper on Monday June 26, 2023 @05:10PM (#36485908)
If you've read the article, its clearly stated that many more people were just using CentOS as free RHEL, never needing to pay anything because it gives them everything they need for free.

It wasn't worth putting up with so many free users for a paid product, just to have a small minority actually pay anything.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by prepend on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @12:30AM (#36488934)
> It wasn't worth putting up with so many free users for a paid product, just to have a small minority actually pay anything.

It used to be worth it for 20+ years. Now something changed.

For my servers I used to use 95% centos, 5% rhel. Now I’ll use 0% rhel.

I didn’t need support for most servers but I liked having comparability for when things grew into needing it.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by bonzini on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @02:16AM (#36489473)
Have you considered the developer team license, the UBI, CentOS Stream? If none of them work for you, either there is a hole that Red Hat would like to be closed or you were already violating the support agreement.
Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by apple4ever on Thursday June 29, 2023 @12:01PM (#36522257)
Probably the reason is licensing is a pain, and its not true "zero-cost" in that case. CentOS then Rocky/Alma removed that issue.

RH doesn't understand this.

Re:A response to the git.centos.org changes by smoldesu on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:56PM (#36484972)
It's the other way around - if Red Hat wants to contribute to GPL software, they have to reconcile the legal realities of the situation with their business model. If it's not viable for them to contribute like this, then they shouldn't. They're binding themselves to the conditions of the GPL by contributing to it though, and shouldn't be granted exemption for being a business. If sharing their changes out of goodwill isn't their prerogative, maybe they should offer enterprise support to redistribution-optional systems like Minix instead.