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Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by hadlock on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:39AM (#36476089)
The daylight between instituting a parenting license and eugenics is not very much.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by monkeywork on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:43AM (#36476109)
that's a hell of a leap - saying take some basic classes (likely not that much unlike how catholic churches require couples classes prior to marrying folks) to understand how to properly care for a child is nothing like eugenics and gene manipulation.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by somenameforme on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:00AM (#36476593)
All eugenics requires is reducing to fertility of a target undesired population to below sustenance. It's actually extremely easy to do because of how 'invisible' it is. Imagine there was a society where literally every single woman had an average of 1 child. It'd be quite weird to claim they were being driven extinct as everybody loads up on diapers, yet that society's population would indeed be trending towards 0 at an exponential rate, but with an 80 year 'lag' in the first wave of deaths that would mask the impact.

And country after country has demonstrated how relatively easy it seems to be to reduce fertility. Iran is a not so well known example. Back in the 80s Iran started to feel that their fertility was a problem. Their population was growing far faster than they had the resources to sustain, so they instituted birth control availability and mandated 'marriage classes' [1], not entirely unlike what's being suggested here. And in these classes they worked to try to reduce overall fertility.

It succeeded far beyond any expectation. Their fertility went from 6+ to 2 in less than a decade. And then it just kept dropping. Today it's down to below 1.7 and it keeps falling. They've long since tried to reverse this trend and started an equal but opposite pro fertility program, but like China also showed - it's far easier to reduce a population's fertility, than it is to bring it back up. These sort of programs work as a perfectly viable proof of concept of a practically invisible eugenics program, and that's quite dangerous.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by dustypotato on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:38AM (#36476824)
> Eugenics is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population.

What you described is not eugenics though.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by somenameforme on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:51AM (#36476909)
Eugenics is generally carried out not through selective breeding, but by removing the populations you do not want to breed. Same thing in 20th century America where the main effort was simply on removing elements from society that "we" didn't want breeding - which has the same effect while reducing the constraints on liberty, which would not be well received otherwise.

See, for instance, the famous quote from Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that, "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." Interestingly enough, the ruling from that court case (Buck v Bell) was never formally overturned. It's simply that eugenics fell out of fashion, following it being taken to extremes by a certain vegetarian artist in Germany with a knack for rhetoric.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by EGreg on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:40AM (#36477247)
People have this weird thing where, if something comes about as an emergent property of a market system, then it’s fine, but otherwise a much more carefully organized result is not fine. Like if corporations raced towards an AI apocalypse then there’s no one to blame but if a central planner did it, then that would be an evil plan that should be stopped.

For example — we don’t particularly need to do anything to reduce birth rates of technologically advanced societies societies with human rights. That’s because women choose to study and work on their career in their 20s, while men try hard to save up to afford the sky-high real estate prices. The market does the eugenics for everyone.

If anything, the fear that uneducated populations or those in low-cost-of-living countries are going to “replace us” is a result of that simple fact. Comparing continents, Africa is expected to continue to have a ton of kids per woman compared to, say, Europe or USA.

Religion, of course plays a role. When the condoms are off, the religion doesn’t matter — you’re going to have a lot of babies. The only difference is, how early do you get married? Religions tend to frown on premarital sex.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by naasking on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:47AM (#36479039)
> Comparing continents, Africa is expected to continue to have a ton of kids per woman compared to, say, Europe or USA.

Fertility is most strongly correlated with child mortality IIRC. The more likely your kid is to die young, the more likely you are to have lots of kids. Very low child mortality in developed nations, so very low fertility.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by EGreg on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:55AM (#36479112)
Correlation doesn't imply causation. Child mortality in Africa has now approached the same as in other countries. Women going to school is a big one.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by naasking on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:03AM (#36479195)
You're assuming an immediate effect. We didn't see such an immediate effect in the developed world either. I suppose we'll see in time.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by randomdata on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:31PM (#36484593)
> we don’t particularly need to do anything to reduce birth rates of technologically advanced societies societies with human rights.

Other than the hard work put in to scaring would-be parents. Indeed, the birth control pill put people in control, but it it is only since the "16 and Pregnant" movement, which campaigned on demonizing having children and stressed the importance of not being saddled by a child, that we've seen below replacement levels.

As a result, the youth of today in their prime rearing years look negatively upon having children, and by the time they "snap out of it" they are into their geriatric child birthing years and biologically don't have much time left, putting tight constraint on how many children can be birthed.

> That’s because women choose to study and work on their career in their 20s

Trouble is that those who choose to have children in their 20s have to face the scorn of society. Unless you are strong-willed, you have little choice but to study and work on your career, even if children is what you truly want.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by DirkH on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:41PM (#36485548)
Isn't there a MASSIVE difference between "you are not allowed to breed because we don't want you and think you're inferior" vs "you did a course and have worked hard and have clearly demonstrated your commitment to rearing a child carefully and thoughtfully, here is some state-sponsored fund to help you "

Drawing an equivalence between these two is like saying a school system that punishes mistakes with physical abuse as a matter of policy to make a smarter population is identical, morally speaking to society at large, as a school system that just rewards good and hard work as a matter of policy to make a smarter population.

It makes no sense. I can't believe anyone could actually believe rewarding parents who have demonstrated a commitment to rearing a child well is identical to enforcing undesirables not have children.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by NiloCK on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:02AM (#36491659)
... and if you fail the class?
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by andsoisthis on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:53AM (#36476931)
Well there already is eugenic like behavior going on. Partners select for money, tall and handsome. It's just not framed that way. End result is the same.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by mediaperpetuals on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:00AM (#36476973)
The media perpetuates certain ideals deemed desirable, the masses follow. You don't need a vegetarian artist somewhere in Europe spewing nonsense. You can still achieve the same thing. I would even go as far to say that modern day advertising and public relations borrowed a lot from Goebbels.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by somenameforme on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:41AM (#36477256)
As much as I loathe advertising, I think this assessment is provably wrong. We're genetically driven to pick out mates most likely to produce fertile, healthy, and effective offspring. Even in relatively isolated tribes with 0 access to advertising of any sort, preferences like low waist-to-hip ratios are ubiquitous [1] (random study that also references a bunch of others - this is not a controversial statement). The reason is that low waist-to-hip ratios correlates with all sorts of health, fertility, and genetic strengths. So we are genetically attracted to such.

I think you could also make an argument in reverse here as well. An increasingly large chunk of Western advertising is actively seeking to push values like contravening said genetic proclivities, yet it seems to have had little to no impact on what people find attractive. That's even more telling as obesity is rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

[1] - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01916-9

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by stared on Monday June 26, 2023 @06:26AM (#36477899)
Eugenics, when taken literally[1], is a good thing. We would rather have healthy kids than suffer from avoidable conditions like Fetal Alcohol Syndorme. Or deficiencies due to malnutrishment of their moms. See "You're probably a eugenicist" (https://dissentient.substack.com/p/eugenicist)

[1] Historically, horrible things happened in the name of eugenics. So did in the name of medicine. Does it mean that we should forgo medicine? No.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by boffinAudio on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:04AM (#36478154)
Eugenics is a vile and repugnant subject to be supporting.

Nobody is qualified to state whether another human being should be allowed to live on the basis of 'faults' in their person.

It is a totalitarian-authoritarian dogma that must die.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by stared on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:48AM (#36478496)
What you do is a strawman fallacy.

Eu-genics is literally good-birth. We already do a lot of things which are de facto eugenics (e.g. choice of mating partners, prenatal screening, good diet, social actions to reduce alcohol consumptions among women) are 100% eugenics. And most people consider them beneficial.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by boffinAudio on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:59AM (#36478577)
Absolutely nonsense.

You are attempting to equivocate heinous racist ideology with 'natural cause'.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by bdowling on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @02:14PM (#36496628)
> Eu-genics is literally good-birth.

This is a reverse straw man argument [0]. You present your position as something easy to defend (good birth, choice of mates, good diet, etc.), even though some parts of it (forced sterilizations, genocide, etc.) are difficult or impossible to defend.

[0] https://en.liberpedia.org/Reverse_straw_man

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by stared on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @04:39PM (#36498340)
A false dichotomy.

It is like saying that if I one is in favor of medicine, they are in favor of the human vivisection and lobotomy. We can (and often - need to be) selective.

I don’t argue for every kind if eugenics. Yes, a lot of it were atrocious. And I am against that as well. Yet, I guess you are in favor of things we already do (mentioned in my previous comment).

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by bdowling on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:40AM (#36508084)
The word eugenics has significant negative connotations that are probably not going away any time soon. So if you continue to use that word for its broader meaning, you will continue to run into trouble.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by stared on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:35PM (#36510606)
I am dead aware of the connotations. Though, I expect people on HN to focus more on definitions than connotations; the latter is a very approximate tool to grasp ideas, and only the simplest ones).

So, I don't use the word eugenics on its own. UNLESS someone says, "oh, this is eugenics" - as a catch-all argument against a thing. For example, the Polish government banned abortions in most cases, including serious fetal defects. It used to be one of a few exceptions, among the mother's health or life being in immediate danger. The government phrased it as "a ban on eugenic abortions". Yes, by all means, these abortions are eugenic - so to argue otherwise would be dishonest. Yet, this is one of the cases where the majority of the population (even in a religiously conservative country such as Poland) would be in favor.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by bdowling on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @08:57PM (#36594390)
I think you may be confusing the etymology of a word, i.e., where it came from, with its meaning as used by the speakers of a language.

Here's a definition from a commonly cited online dictionary of American English:

> eugenics

> : the practice or advocacy of controlled selective breeding of human populations (as by sterilization) to improve the population's genetic composition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eugenics#dictiona...

Here's another definition from the Oxford Dictionary of English Third Edition:

> eugenics | juːˈdʒɛnɪks |

> plural noun [treated as singular]

> the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable. Developed largely by Sir Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, eugenics was increasingly discredited as unscientific and racially biased during the 20th century, especially after the adoption of its doctrines by the Nazis in order to justify their treatment of Jews, disabled people, and other minority groups.

Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by LocalH on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:08AM (#36478649)
To pivot the conversation slightly, I presume you would also be against the death penalty?
[dead]
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by esalman on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:02AM (#36479178)
Close to 10 years of marriage and one child. I agree with the sentiment of the OP.
Re:Ignoring Boys' Emotional Needs Fuels Public Health Risks by sacado2 on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:28PM (#36485382)
"Preventing births within a group" is one of the definitions of a genocide.