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Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by lrem on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:36AM (#36476073)
The problem with storage is that the only method with significant production mileage is pumped hydro. This undoes a few of the stated benefits of renewables. You need to use significant land where you exterminate current nature. Catastrophic failure is a major ecological disaster for a large area… And actually hydro is the second in death toll after coal, isn’t it? Worst of all, you’re limited geographically on where and how much you can put.
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by asmala on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:52AM (#36476159)
Hydro is indeed 1-2 orders of magnitude worse than other renewables on a deaths per TWh basis, but still 2-25× safer than all fossil fuels. (Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-p...)
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:22AM (#36476373)
Even that statistic vastly overstates the risk of hydro. From elsewhere on the ourworldindata site:

> This rate is almost completely dominated by one event: the Banqiao Dam Failure in China in 1975. It killed approximately 171,000 people. Otherwise, hydropower was very safe, with a death rate of just 0.04 deaths per TWh – comparable to nuclear, solar, and wind.

The Banqiao Dam failure had much more to do the 1970s Chinese Communist Party incompetence and the Cultural Revolution than anything specific to water power.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by MattGaiser on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:54AM (#36476173)
> And actually hydro is the second in death toll after coal, isn’t it?

It appears to be second in death toll among renewables, after biomass.

https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by eastbound on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:12AM (#36476295)
They only didn’t count people falling from the roof as cost of solar energy. For a country of 40m inhabitants, it’s about 1 per year, and that’s huge:

> Solar: In an average year nobody would die – only every 50 years would someone die.

It’s like saying Chernobyl only caused 32 deaths because the other ones were outside the plant.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by pfdietz on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:43AM (#36478984)
Fortunately, a rational PV rollout will use PV on the ground in large arrays, where it's much cheaper than awkwardly fitting it onto fiddly little roofs.
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by andrewinardeer on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:58AM (#36476209)
I think the 'catastrohpic failure' argument is overblown. How many events have occurred when there was large scale contamination? Obviously Chernobyl. Yet pointing to this I think is a cop out. A corrupt, secrecy driven regime 40 years is not equivalent to a modern society in the 2020s.

What people don't understand is there has been literally decades of nuclear power generation over hundreds of reactors worldwide with zero issues.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by lrem on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:26AM (#36476397)
There have been multiple catastrophic failures of dams, which I was writing about. The last one left about 600 square km (150k acres) flooded with major epidemiological (well, plus landmines) risk and 6000 square km (1.5M acres) of irrigation loss in farmland.
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by bugglebeetle on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:06AM (#36476256)
> Yet pointing to this I think is a cop out. A corrupt, secrecy driven regime 40 years is not equivalent to a modern society in the 2020s.

I’d say the current state of American infrastructure, with our collapsing highways and constantly derailing trains that poison entire towns, would suggest otherwise.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by thatswrong0 on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:31AM (#36476780)
This is a bit reductionist, as we're talking about vastly different scales of infrastructure here governed by very different institutions with very different expectations imposed upon them by the population.

From some admittedly quick research, there are apparently 600,000 road bridges in the US, and the continued maintenance of these bridges is dispersed between 50 different state governments. The US 140,000 miles of railroad track that transports 61 tons of goods per American per year. The scale of the size and use of road and rail systems in the United States are off the charts massive. This is not to excuse the issues you're referring to (they are real and they should definitely be fixed), but the context in which these issues are occurring is important when comparing to something like nuclear.

And it's not like it's all bad when it comes to massive infrastructure in the US: 1.7 million people fly in the US every day, and the last fatal crash on a commercial airlines occurred in 2009. Flying in the US right now is probably the safest mode of transport.. ever? Clearly the US is capable of regulating _some_ things well from a safety perspective.

So.. there are only 92 active nuclear reactors in the United States, all of which are regulated under a single independent agency of the US federal government (the NRC). It's obia much smaller, more tractable problem than general transportation infrastructure.

The worst accident occurred in 1979 and the total amount of deaths in the US caused by the industry are vanishingly small compared to so many other industries (even if you use the worst estimates from the TMI accident). The regulations and associated costs surrounding nuclear are such that we have fewer reactors now than we had in 1990. And the designs and technology of nuclear reactors continues to be improvements upon (what happened at Chernobyl specifically is basically not possible anywhere in the world besides the Russia).

I don't think it really makes sense to cast into doubt the entirety of the US government's ability to keep people safe at all (including from scary things like nuclear) just because we are seeing _some_ things go wrong at times (and I say this as someone who does in fact have very little faith in the efficacy for the US government generally speaking)

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by pfdietz on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:23AM (#36478791)
Air travel is so safe that anything that makes it more expensive has a real cost in lives, since it will cause some people to save money by driving instead. Somewhere (here on HN?) there was a link about an FAA decision to not require car seats for infant passengers. This would require purchase of another seat for the infant, and FAA calculated the cost in lives would be 60x that of the lives saved by the car seats.
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by sam_lowry_ on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:41AM (#36476840)
There were 30 deaths directly attributed to Chernobyl and ~4000 statistical deaths due to radiation exposure.

This is comparable to the North Sea flood [1] with 2,551 instant deaths.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:16AM (#36476324)
Pumped hydro is actually possible to be a lot smaller and less ecologically devastating than traditional hydro.

The requirements are rarely for more than a few hours or a day or two of storage, which significantly reduces the required reservoir volume. And the only requirement is that it be at a higher elevation than the source body of water, so rather than disrupt an entire river and its migration patterns you can have it off to the side.

Because the sites are now a lot smaller and not limited to drops in elevation along rivers, you now have many possible sites; many pumped storage sites are either existing reservoirs or disused mines.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by lovemenot on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:25AM (#36476386)
Furthermore, the reservoirs can make good sites for solar PV: having power distribution already present, reducing evaporation and enhancing PV output by cooling.
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by Zanfa on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:55AM (#36476558)
> The requirements are rarely for more than a few hours or a day or two of storage, which significantly reduces the required reservoir volume.

That’s one of the main issues right there. You can’t just plan for the typical case. You need to account for the slightly less frequent cases as well, like 11 days straight of <20% solar/wind generation [1]. And that’s not even an extreme outlier event.

[1] https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/q1-2021/when-the-wind...

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by pfdietz on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:26AM (#36478826)
Rare events like that can be covered by combustion turbines. First with natural gas (not used often, so little CO2 emission), ultimately with hydrogen.

Because a simple cycle combustion turbine power plant is maybe 5% of the cost per watt of capacity of a nuclear power plant, we could cover the entire grid with CT backup and not come anywhere close to the cost of powering the grid with nuclear. And because these would be used so infrequently the fuel cost would be negligible.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:16AM (#36476684)
> rather than disrupt an entire river and its migration patterns you can have it off to the side.

This doesn’t sound accurate.

If you have a reservoir with zero head you can’t recover potential energy because there is not.

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:45AM (#36476862)
Off river pumped hydro can still be at a higher elevation. It’s just not the entire river itself. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2516-1083/abeb5b
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by bryanlarsen on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:01AM (#36478129)
Which just means you need elevation beside a body of water. Take a look at the picture of Ludington: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power...
Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by pfdietz on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:41AM (#36478966)
Example of a pumped hydro system being built in Nevada, near Ely:

https://www.whitepinepumpedstorage.com/

You can see from the image how small the reservoirs are. The initial charge is 5,500 acre-feet of water (and 600 acre-feet per year makeup water, I presume for evaporation). It stores 8 GWh of energy with a power capacity of 1 GW. The estimated economic lifespan is 75 years (conservative, since very few PHES systems worldwide have been retired.) Cost is $2.5B.

The Basin and Range province has an embarrassingly large potential for pumped hydro, due to the geography: all those intermixed linear mountain ranges and valleys. This province is also where UAMPS is trying to get utilities to buy into that cluster of six NuScale reactors. Utterly dumb, when they have practically unlimited storage at a shade over $300/kWh of capacity and could use renewables instead.

The pumped hydro projects do seem to have long build times; it would be interesting to know why that was. This one is not projected to come online until 2031. The company has 11 projects in the pipeline.

https://www.rplushydro.com/projects

Re:America aims for nuclear-power renaissance by RGamma on Monday June 26, 2023 @05:45AM (#36477642)
I wish someone would give these guys lotsa money https://heindl-energy.com/