Exactly! I like to explain this kind of casual rulebreaking to US/UK people as being the German equivalent of using disgusting swearwords. Fine to do with your friends if nobody is around, or if you want to look tough or whatever, but don't do it in crowds and especially not in front of children.

I think this is strange. What is the example you're setting... that we all follow the rules? And when they find out that you don't follow the rules, will that not be a disappointment?

Here is an incident that happened the second day I got to Vietnam (long before I was ever in Germany). My girlfriend was really sick in the hotel. I was vomiting too, but I went out to find medicine. I got to the corner of a huge boulevard, maybe 8 lanes wide. There was a pharmacy on the other side. But the traffic never stopped when the light turned red. On and on the traffic just kept going, weaving around all the other cars on the cross-street. The boulevard was maybe 1 meter below the level of the sidewalk. I stood there for 5 minutes waiting for some time to step into the street.

Finally, a 6-year-old boy walked up alone, paused next to me, and started crossing the boulevard in the middle of the traffic. And all the cars and motorcycles just went around him.

I was like, well fuck, if that kid can do it then I can do it...

So what value are you teaching children? How to cross a street or how to follow orders? Crossing a street when it's possible may be illegal but it's not immoral. The idea that neglecting formalities leads to immorality can only be true if the morality isn't implanted. Worse, it implies that formalities are the only thing that holds back man's immoral nature... which should not be the lesson. If a man jaywalks, it doesn't make him more liable to commit other criminal acts.

> So what value are you teaching children?

What value are you teaching children by not swearing in front of them? Why is making certain sounds with your mouth immoral? Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured? The jwalking culture in Germany is exactly the same.

> Isn't it just showing your are in-group and well cultured?

Yes, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Learning that different groups of people may have their own languages and customs is the first step to being able to blend in with a diverse group; it's great when you're able to adopt a register appropriate to the people you are with at any given moment.

Of course it's also possible that the child learns to be a snob and treating with disdain those who are not in your group. But I would say that's a character trait of the person, and it's still worth having the opportunity to learn how to adapt, rather than being unable to modulate your behavior and only knowing how to have a single posture. Having a culture of acceptance starts with knowing the customs of many different groups.

Crossing a street when the light is red is dangerous, because it means other traffic will have a green light. You want to teach children to stop for red lights, or you're going to end up with dead kids sooner rather than later.

Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule. In most countries traffic won't swerve around you, they'll just end up hitting you because they are not expecting it!

> Countries like Vietnam are the exception, not the rule.

I don’t think this is necessarily true. They probably end up with a lot more dead kids as a result of this.

The reasoning is: Children are both small and stupid. They cannot reliably judge when a red-light crossing is safe.

I don't know how Vietnam makes it work; they either have really alert drivers, really slow drivers or a really high child mortality rate.

It's just different expected behavior. Drivers have to constantly be on alert of people doing their thing. Tuktuk rides in Bangkok can be exhilarating because of motorbikes crisscrossing through traffic right and left of you. I was glad our driver was used to it and that I didn't quite see a lot because of the low roof... Vehicular accident statistics are the ultimate judge here.

That's just how traffic works in many countries. "Jaywalking" is the normal behavior, especially when streets are filled with traffic. You slowly wade through traffic in a straight line, so drivers can anticipate where you are and let you through safely. While in other countries, it is generally expected to follow the traffic rules. People exploit that to drive faster and/or less carefully, therefore crossing the street like in Vietnam might get you killed in more "orderly" countries. Violating red lights is not taught to children because they don't necessarily appreciate the dangers involved[0]. The correct way to do it is to evaluate all risks, erring on the side of safety, and only then override your instinct to follow the rules.

[0]: I often notice that children are quite unobservant of their surroundings and behave as if they are alone in the world.

>> Maybe you were doing it near children?

YES that is precisely what happened. That's so funny you said this.

I was standing in heavy falling snow, at the corner of an empty boulevard, next to a woman with two little daughters and a young boy. I stood for a moment and then walked across and she started yelling at me. I suppose she was trying to teach her children to be patient and wait for the light to change. What went through my head at that moment was, I kid you not, "ah, that's how they learn to follow orders".

And this is entirely in sync with my original point above, but also personally, I loathe Munich. There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish. I believe the people there would vote for Hitler in a heartbeat if he were alive and running for office.

You begin by sharing an anecdote where you perceived Germans as strictly law-abiding, only to have your assumption reevaluated when someone pointed out the presence of children, and the possible intention to teach them patience and safety.

However, instead of reconsidering your stance on Germans' law-abiding behavior, you reassert your bias by invoking Godwin's Law, linking a contemporary incident to the actions of Hitler.

Do you see any issue with this?

(I'm not German)

I do, from an outside perspective, see how ridiculous it sounds for me to conflate all those things. But Munich severely unsettled me and left me so distraught and angry that, as a whole, this minor incident which I'd previously forgotten only serves to reinforce my overall view. Taken together, it makes perfect sense.

You don't shout at a man in the street in order to demonstrate good behavior to your children.

Obedience, yes. Good behavior, no.

> There's nothing like being told holocaust jokes when people don't know you're Jewish

this is literally how every minority (basically anyone but the waspiest of wasps) feels in america. terrible jokes about <insert race here> are completely normalized.

If anything I feel like Germans are more sensitive about this than most.

> You don't shout at a man in the street in order to demonstrate good behavior to your children.

You do if you are angry that said man is sabotaging your efforts to raise your children correctly. Also, said man is breaking a law instituted for a good reason.

I’m also personally of the opinion that speaking up when you are angry instead of passively taking it is good for society.

I mean, that makes sense though, she was probably angry at you. "If you're angry at someone you yell at them" is very normal behavior, and has nothing to do with "following orders".

It sounds like you have some hangups that you are projecting onto this situation.

The question is then why she was sufficiently angry to voice it out to a stranger. Neither was she a policewoman, nor was she a driver, nor was GP stringing along somebody she should be concerned about. She clearly wanted to avoid her kids learning that it's on to nilly-willy cross a red light (kids can't see in GPs head and appreciate that GP considered the risks)

I mean. It seems you've answered your own question?

She wants to avoid her kids considering it acceptable to cross a red light. Parent violated community norms by crossing a red light. So now she has to signal that this person has violated community norms, so that her kids learn "red light crossing is bad" rather than "red light crossing is normal".

This is not a "german" thing, this is a "human" thing.