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Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by el_nahual on Thursday June 22, 2023 @03:42PM (#36437650)
Not as much as you'd think! In many places in the yucatan peninsula topsoil is only a few inches deep; it's not rare to see no topsoil at all! The limestone bedrock is exposed to air.

Most mayan ruins have vast sections that are un-execavated, and you can just see the shape of walls/buildings/roads under the plants and foliage.

In the words of Fray Diego de Landa, a spanish bishop (and monster) that was in charge of the church in Yucatan in the 16th century:

Yucatán es una tierra la de menos tierra que yo he visto

("Yucatán is a land with the least amount of land I've ever seen", where in spanish "tierra" means both "land" and "dirt/soil")

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by bedobi on Thursday June 22, 2023 @05:56PM (#36439622)
> Yucatán es una tierra la de menos tierra que yo he visto

complete side note but is that what he would have said verbatim or a rendition in modern Spanish? super curious

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by neodypsis on Thursday June 22, 2023 @06:18PM (#36439926)
Doesn't sound like modern Spanish
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by slicktux on Thursday June 22, 2023 @08:18PM (#36441071)
Definitely modern Spanish…
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by as_bntd on Thursday June 22, 2023 @09:54PM (#36441878)
Not a modern Spanish sentence structure.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by empyrrhicist on Friday June 23, 2023 @08:53AM (#36446160)
Can you expand?
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by as_bntd on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:02PM (#36448732)
Yes. The sentence in question is "Yucatán es una tierra la de menos tierra que yo he visto".

The section "la de menos tierra" sounds fine in isolation, as do the preceding and following sections.

But together they give off a very archaic feeling. Understandable since it was written almost 500 years ago.

A modern version, might be:

Yucatán es la tierra de/con menos tierra que (yo) he visto.

If you know Spanish and you read that sentence and the following ones here: https://www.wayeb.org/download/resources/landa.pdf (cmd+f or go to page 101) you'll notice that every single sentence is rendered differently as it would be in modern Spanish.

An example:

Yucatán es una tierra la de menos tierra que yo he visto, porque toda ella es una viva laja, y tiene a maravilla poca tierra, tanto que habrá pocas partes donde se pueda cavar un estado sin dar en grandes bancos de lajas muy grandes. La piedra no es muy buena para labores delicadas, porque es dura y tosca; empero, tal cual es, ha sido para que de ella hayan hecho la muchedumbre de edificios que en aquella tierra hay; es muy buena para cal, de que hay mucha, y es cosa maravillosa que sea tanta la fertilidad de esta tierra sobre las piedras y entre ellas.

And a quickly made conversion into modern Spanish, trying to preserve certain things while excising others haphazardly:

Yucatán es la tierra con menos tierra que yo he visto, porque toda ella es piedra viva, y tiene maravillosamente poca tierra, a tal grado que habrá pocas partes donde se pueda cavar (4-5 metros cuadrados) sin dar con grandes bancos de lajas muy grandes. La piedra no es muy buena para labores delicadas, porque es dura y tosca; pero, tal cual es, ha sido usada para construir los numerosos edificios que en aquella tierra hay; es muy buena para cal, de la cual hay mucha, y es cosa maravillosa que esta tierra sea tan fértil, sobre las piedras y entre ellas.

EDIT: so everything is understandable really, but some things, like the phrasal adverb (?) (locuciónes adverbial) "a maravilla" has become less used than using -mente to convert an adjective into an adverb. And some articles are used strangely, and some words aren't used anymore (estado as a unit of area), empero instead of pero, etc.

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by empyrrhicist on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:11PM (#36448857)
Thanks, that helps. I think I have some trouble distinguishing formal from archaic. I do find it much easier to parse the modern versions you made.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by as_bntd on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:56PM (#36452065)
I'm glad I could help. And yes, I can see how it can be difficult to distinguish them, especially since there really wasn't any word that truly has become obsolete in those sentences, except the specific meaning of estado, it was just a matter of how everything works together, both words and phrases.

Also note that even in the modern version I made, some sentences sound formal, or perhaps literary, such as "que en aquella tierra hay" rather than the super informal "que hay allá" or the middle ground "que hay en aquella/esa tierra".

Also note that I completely botched the spelling of lucuciones adverbiales by adding an accent and eliding the plural, oops.

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by sosodev on Friday June 23, 2023 @01:05PM (#36449584)
This is an excellent comment. Kudos to you for taking the time to write it out.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by as_bntd on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:40PM (#36451929)
Thanks! I had fun writing it.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by empyrrhicist on Thursday June 22, 2023 @10:12PM (#36441992)
Not a native speaker, but it sounds almost spoken/informal in my mind. "Yucatan is a land (place/territory) - it's the one with the least land that I have seen."

Doesn't seem that weird to me, but I hear a pause before "la"- curious what makes you think it is.

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by empyrrhicist on Friday June 23, 2023 @11:54AM (#36448622)
For the interested, relative pronouns: https://studyspanish.com/grammar/lessons/relproelque
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by veave on Thursday June 22, 2023 @07:33PM (#36440720)
It is verbatim, Spanish from the 16th century. It doesn't sound right to a modern Spanish speaker.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by sosodev on Thursday June 22, 2023 @08:11PM (#36441020)
It seems fairly close to modern Spanish at least. Totally intelligible.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by lisasays on Thursday June 22, 2023 @11:44PM (#36442529)
"Intelligible" and "sounds right" are very different things.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by empyrrhicist on Friday June 23, 2023 @10:16AM (#36447121)
Can you expand about why it doesn't sound right? Are you a native speaker?
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by lisasays on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:31PM (#36449155)
No - you'll have to ask the commenter a few notches above about that. I was referring the general distinction between the terms. In general - just because a phrase is easily understood doesn't mean it is idiomatically correct or natural-sounding to a native speaker.

As to the phrase itself: from my limited knowledge of the language, it does sound to be very close to correct -- so I'd be curious also as to what the sticking point is.

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by elpakal on Thursday June 22, 2023 @10:20PM (#36442043)
Sounds fine to me. Maybe depends on your kind of Spanish
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by el_nahual on Thursday June 22, 2023 @07:43PM (#36440801)
Verbatim, from his diaries.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by UberFly on Thursday June 22, 2023 @07:03PM (#36440414)
Great info. Thanks! I wonder if that contributed to their susceptibility to drought.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by c420 on Thursday June 22, 2023 @08:21PM (#36441092)
The topography is also extremely level so if you see anything mound-ish, there's likely something man-made in there.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by distortionfield on Thursday June 22, 2023 @10:09PM (#36441972)
Yeah, this surprised me a lot when I was in Mexico, it was so much more flat than I thought it would be. Dense, thick, flat carpet of jungle as far as the eye can see.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by interactivecode on Friday June 23, 2023 @06:13AM (#36444884)
Does that mean it has clearly been cultivated to be that flat?
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by corinroyal on Friday June 23, 2023 @04:17PM (#36451708)
No. It's undeformed limestone karst, meaning old uplifted seabed that was not crunched up.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by dimmke on Thursday June 22, 2023 @08:56PM (#36441344)
It’s because that’s where the asteroid hit right? The one that killed the dinosaurs
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by 29athrowaway on Thursday June 22, 2023 @09:54PM (#36441882)
That was the guy that collected all the manuscripts from Mesoamerican civilizations and burned them all.

This event is comparable to the destruction of the Great library of Alexandria, or the destruction of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.

Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by elpakal on Thursday June 22, 2023 @10:19PM (#36442040)
I remember flying over some parts of Chiapas as a young boy thinking for sure that every mound or hill was an undiscovered temple of some kind, waiting for someone to stumble on. There’s a lot of uncovered magic there, a lot like all of the wild dinosaur bones being accidentally found in the construction debris of booming humanity.
Re:Ancient Maya city discovered in Mexican jungle by incomplete on Friday June 23, 2023 @12:44PM (#36449305)
one of my many majors in college (mid 1990s) was archaeology, specializing in central/south america.

i recall one of my profs telling us that if you see a hill in the yucatan, it's a buried ruin.