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Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by pessimizer on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:10PM (#36299342)
I think that it's anti-black to de-racist-ify the past. Take it or leave it, but don't gaslight black people over the experience that they've had for the last century or four in relation to Europeans.

As far as I can tell, a major component of woke bowdlerization of the past seems to be finding depictions of black people and either eliminating them or making them conform to the idealistic stereotypes of modern white liberals. That's stacking stereotypes on stereotypes, and the truth of the black experience gets buried even deeper.

The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:17PM (#36299431)
I read an article last week where a DEI expert was angry about the new release of The Little Mermaid because it wasn't nearly racist enough; that 18th-century Caribbean people were friends and kind to each other no matter what their race or sex; it was unconscionable that history should be rewritten to leave out the allegedly horrible experiences being had by BIPOC in that place and time.
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by pessimizer on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:23PM (#36299517)
That's a symptom of trying to rewrite white stories and stick black people into them. It's the same process as trying to rewrite male stories with female protagonists. It's the creation of fictional pasts. If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about? They should have just tried harder.
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by slg on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:31PM (#36299644)
And the reason we get these stories in this way is not because of anything related to wokeism, progressivism, DEI, or whatever buzzword you wanted use. It is because of risk averse capitalists. Disney knows a Black Little Mermaid is a safer investment than an original story with a Black protagonist so that is the version we get.
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by themaninthedark on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:31PM (#36301465)
That is rather racist isn't it?(Not your comment but the attitude held by the corporation)
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by slg on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:17PM (#36302056)
No, it is cynical, ignorant, and lazy, but I don't think it qualifies as racist. I would compare it to those people who like to claim they "don't see race". It isn't actually racist because it isn't discriminatory or putting one race above another. It is just ignoring something that often can't be ignored.
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by watwut on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:58PM (#36301011)
The original story was a fiction too and creates fictional past too. That exact same story with only males in it ... was a fiction. Those males never existed and never did any of those things. Variant of the same fictional story with a woman or a black person is ... exactly as fictional as original. The real world back then contained both men and women. None of them done the mythical things stories are about.

Modern reimagining of The Three Musketeers make Musketeers sound more honorable and noble then actual text. Some comedies make them sound incapable, clumsy and funny. Dumas politics was not pro-ancient regime and he actually makes it clear. Making that into super honorable flawless dudes is as much "changing past fiction" as if you slapped gender or race or made them eskimos. But somehow that is fine.

> If all we see is fictional pasts where black people are just white people with tans, and women are just pretty men, what are black people and women complaining about?

In general, they complain about how they are or were treated back in real world. They also complain about being depicted in fiction as dumb simpletons without agency and then people on discussion forums claiming that those dumb simpletons depictions somehow constitute historical reality.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by watwut on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:24PM (#36300485)
The Little Mermaid is not a history and does not contain historical lessons.
Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by BenisMaximus on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:47PM (#36299865)
It's like going through life with autism and being called "neurodiverse" as if you haven't lived with an active disability your whole life, you're just a little different from everyone else.

Back in the early 2000s I saw someone refer to a wheelchair-bound person as "handicapable". The disabled fellow ran over his foot lol.

Point being I think it's best not to minimize people's suffering. Acknowledge it, respect it, and try to move forward together.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by Aloha on Monday June 12, 2023 @04:34PM (#36300638)
I dont think of Autism (as someone who has it) as a disability - even though it does make me different (normal people and their societal norms are often baffling to me, but I still follow those norms to the extent I am able).

I don't want others to think of me as disabled either (though a little understanding might be nice when I fail to mask well enough).

Maybe the problem is how we treat the disabled, not the words we use to talk about disability?

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by mschuster91 on Monday June 12, 2023 @03:51PM (#36299924)
Changing characters and their depictions is a thing that can be argued about, but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023.

In general, it's (IMHO) not needed to have centuries old books full of stereotypes in modern curricula. There are so many works that have been published in the last decades that provide far better diversity of all kinds than even a "de-racisted" historic book can. Modern authors, modern artists, modern composers and other artists deserve their shine in the spotlight as well - it's ridiculous how much of curricula is spent on stuff that happened or got created hundreds to thousands of years ago. We have to refocus education on modern events if we want a modern society.

And if you want something filled with racial or other stereotypes in curricula, ffs print it with commentary like we do with Hitler's "Mein Kampf" here in Germany. That is, coincidentally, the only way one is allowed to do a reprint in Germany due to copyright and anti-Nazi symbolism laws.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by xg15 on Monday June 12, 2023 @05:38PM (#36301550)
> but there's definitely no need to print n-bombs in books printed in 2023.

How can a word be a bomb?

And I'm still at a loss how in a supposedly post-enlightenment world, a single word can be so evil that you have to resort to code to refer to it, no matter in which context or whether or not you're quoting.

Yes, you shouldn't call people that way - and if you do, that is a clear sign of a racist mindset. But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 14, 2023 @03:59AM (#36322861)
> But treating the word itself as some kind of forbidden symbol that must be purged from everything is not much better than medieval magical thinking.

Nonetheless, the continued reproduction of that word makes it "acceptable" to be used, and every time affected persons have to read that, it's bad for them.

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by civilitty on Monday June 12, 2023 @06:58PM (#36302551)
> The way my grandmother spoke would be cut out of a modern novel as a racist stereotype.

That’s nothing new sadly, especially in academia. It used to be considered proper literary form to “translate” how people actually spoke to “proper English” and you can imagine the demographic of the people doing the “translating.”

See for example Barracoon: The Story of the Last "Black Cargo" [1] about one of the last living former slaves in the US. It was published a few years ago nearly a century after it was written because the author refused to white wash the subject’s language and couldn’t get it published in her life time.

Hell that criticism could easily be leveled at some of the most popular western canon like To Kill a Mockingbird and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracoon:_The_Story_of_the_...

Re:21st-century editors should keep their hands off of 20th-... by quacked on Thursday June 15, 2023 @05:41PM (#36346916)
Barracoon is the greatest work of anti-slavery literature I've ever read. It wouldn't have been as effective if they'd removed his dialect. "Sometimes I think I die in my sleep when I dream bout my mama." I had tears in my eyes.