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Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by freeone3000 on Friday June 09, 2023 @10:47AM (#36258649)
Doctor-patient confidentiality is important so that the doctor can act in your best interest (yes, yes, very funny) with full information. Very many things doctors need to be aware of to diagnose conditions have significant social stigma. Examples include alcoholism, mental disorders, substance abuse, genital status, sexual status, pregnancy status, the list goes on. The average person is reluctant to share this information to begin with, with good reason, as it goes into a permanent record. If such a record were public…

No, even for longitudinal studies, even with “anonymized” data, the risk is too great for any individual, and to society in general. Ideopathic and non-causal diseases should have some buy-in from patients; a standard waiver might be useful for research use of data. (I’ve signed one.) But in general, no, the restrictions are worth it.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by cloverich on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:21AM (#36259181)
> Very many things doctors need to be aware of to diagnose conditions have significant social stigma... the risk is too great for any individual

Very many things doctors need to be aware of, because the patients life depends on it, are left out when patients move between specialists and physicians, which happens all of the time.

Outbreaks of viral and bacterial illnesses result in thousands of people independently chasing diagnoses and treatment, because the system doesn't share information that could be used to piece together and get ahead of it. Every time my kid gets sick at school, I get to play a game of "What is it? Do we see a Doctor? How much money should we spend?". Lets pretend we know nothing about this and go see a Doctor who hasn't seen anyone else in school, who may provide antibiotics they may or may not need or worse.

Effective prevention methods and early detection of bad treatment are discarded because its so difficult to investigate and connect the dots between interventions and outcomes.

Patient privacy is important, but the system we have today is nothing less than a tragedy. Real damage in emotional, physical, and economic is happening on a grand scale every day in this country. We shouldn't pretend HIPPA is a good thing, or the current system is doing a good job. Its not. We need to radically transform how we operate, and much more open and connected medical records is certainly a part of that transformation.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:30AM (#36259330)
> We shouldn't pretend HIPPA is a good thing, or the current system is doing a good job.

Honestly, my problem with HIPAA is that it's not really adequate. There are too many loopholes in it. I'd like to see it strengthened quite a lot.

> much more open and connected medical records is certainly a part of that transformation.

As long as the patients those records are about are in full control over their disclosure and use.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by EatingWithForks on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:44AM (#36259550)
HIPPAA doesn't just cover, say, the spread of tuberculosis. It also bars things like collecting a panel of homosexuals, transgenders, women who are on birth control or have abortions, people seeking treatment for schizophrenia or a personality disorder or addiction, or just fat poor smucks that don't adequately treat their diabetes. Any number of highly stigmatized things or things that Palantir would love to own to sell to a private company.

I would start freaking the fuck out if my primary care physician gets to sell my diagnosis for money to Facebook, and I don't give a rat's ass if some 3 year old could've been cured of epilepsy if my doctor was able to do so. HIPPAA prevents my doctor from doing so and I'm glad for it.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by cloverich on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:12PM (#36260004)
What I'm saying is, the protections it provides are overstated, and the damage it does is (greatly) understated. I am not saying lets discard privacy protections all together. I am saying lets not let bad implementations of good intentions convince us to be ok with an extremely expensive system that is not very useful and results in a great deal of physical and economic harm.

> I would start freaking the fuck out if my primary care physician gets to sell my diagnosis for money to Facebook,

To play Devil's advocate, do you think Facebook doesn't know who is gay and who has diabetes? If Target can figure out when you're pregnant, Google can certainly figure out on which day you plan to go the abortion clinic. This information is already out there and used in ways we don't like. So maybe we should consider re-working HIPPA so the information can be used by the good guys instead.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by EatingWithForks on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:19PM (#36260125)
If anything your Devil's advocate is that it should apply to way, way more people than just healthcare providers, and I would thoroughly agree with that. Facebook messages have already been used to arrest women for abortions, which should be huge violation of someone's privacy and totally verboten.

You cannot say the protections it provides are overstated if you are not the people who were victimized by a lack of such protections in the first place. I do not want the "good guys" collecting panels on jews. I certainly don't want the "good guys" collecting panels of info on trans kids without involvement from parents. The idea there is a "good guys" in this scenario is ridiculous. The idea that it might save lives is a cold comfort to the status of my minor child's birth control prescription status being accessible to the government.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by rangerelf on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:56PM (#36261507)
> So maybe we should consider re-working HIPPA so the information can be used by the good guys instead.

Who are these "good guys" you speak so highly of? CA gov? FL gov? Federal gov? FBI? Planned Parenthood? Some church?

I'm curious about these mythical "good guys" that you, the NRA, and other people with an agenda repeatedly handwave about.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by cloverich on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:05PM (#36261631)
> Who are these "good guys" you speak so highly of

Anyone who wants to use the records to improve healthcare. There are plenty of these folks in the medical field, based on my time in medical school and brief stint in a medical research group.

I would also include anyone involved in your direct care, i.e. the front-desk personal at the various doctors offices we visit, who have no way of easily obtaining your medical history if you aren't already in their system.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by EatingWithForks on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:27PM (#36261994)
> Anyone who wants to use the records to improve healthcare.

This is so nebulous. Anyone can claim they want to improve healthcare. The removal of abortion access has also been repeatedly been justified as improving healthcare. The Tuskeegee experiments (where they just let black men live with a curable, debilitating disease and continually lied to them about their suffering, some of them to their graves) was justified as improving healthcare. "Wanting to improve healthcare" does not preclude people from horrifically unethical behavior. Get better standards if you want to be accessing the private information of people without their consent.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by nradov on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:07PM (#36262563)
I don't know why you're bringing up direct care. HIPAA specifically allows access to PHI for treatment, payment, and health care operations.

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/faq/authorizatio...

When providers fail to obtain medical histories for new patients that's not due to any legal restrictions. In most cases they simply haven't bothered to implement the open interoperability industry standards which make it easy to exchange such data, or haven't joined networks that facilitate such exchange. For example, the majority of physicians still don't have a publicly listed DirectTrust Direct Secure Messaging address even though they could have one at a very low cost.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by nradov on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:17PM (#36260932)
That is totally wrong. There is nothing in HIPAA which would prevent healthcare providers from reporting infectious disease outbreaks to public health agencies. In fact, under some circumstances they are actually required to report.

https://www.cdc.gov/nndss/about/index.html

And it's not "HIPPA". For some reason, people who are deeply ignorant about what the law actually does also seem to get the acronym wrong.

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/index.html

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by cloverich on Friday June 09, 2023 @07:36PM (#36265808)
> There is nothing in HIPAA which would prevent healthcare providers from reporting infectious disease outbreaks to public health agencies.

I see. So if three patients visit three separate physicians (with three separate healthcare systems) with the same illness (outbreak), these records may be aggregated to detect the outbreak? I was under the impression this kind of thing was not possible, or very difficult / limited, and would require some kind of patient authorization, and that HIPAA played a role in this.

(I expect this exists for known serious things like Ebola, but was thinking more directly about things like strep or typical viruses in a school. It seems like the outbreak information is put together after the fact, or after it gets grossly bad)

> For some reason, people who are deeply ignorant about what the law actually does also seem to get the acronym wrong.

Probably that HIPPA reads more like a word than HIPAA.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by ClumsyPilot on Friday June 09, 2023 @10:56AM (#36258778)
> many things doctors need to be aware of to diagnose conditions have significant social stigma

some are illegal - think threating drug overdose

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by michaelmior on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:03AM (#36258897)
In some jurisdictions, this not always the case. One example is the "Good Samaritan" law in California[0] which provides some protection patients seeking medical treatment for an overdose.

https://www.wingerdenlaw.com/blog/2020/02/can-you-be-charged...

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:44PM (#36260475)
Nowadays, seeking abortion/family planning could -literally- result in being jailed, and forced to give birth.

Mental health is a big deal. For better or for worse, if your employer/licensing org is aware of any mental health issues, then they could adjust how they treat you.

Crappy bosses could use your history as a way to discredit or manipulate you. That's exactly what the CIA does, whenever someone blows a whistle on them.

Some medical conditions can be interpreted by different people, in intensely negative ways. For example, at one time, being left-handed, meant that you were possessed by the devil.

Often sexual orientation/behavior is a part of your medical history.

But I'm suuuuure that no one would ever use this information in a questionable way.

Look at the "mug shot protection racket" sites. These sites leverage personal information that has been made public, as a way to force you to pay them to remove it (and then immediately republish it in another venue).

I guarantee that a number of folks on this very site, run those sites, and sincerely believe there's nothing wrong with it.

No. Just because "I have nothing to hide," does not mean that I get to force others to divulge intensely personal stuff.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by iandanforth on Friday June 09, 2023 @10:51AM (#36258710)
I'm not willing to let tens or hundreds of thousands of people die because of social stigma. It disgusts me that so many people are.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:33AM (#36259377)
It's not as black and white as that. People also have died because of the abuse of medical data. There is real, genuine harm either way.

And I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to share. I have consented to such things before. But it should be my decision how much risk I'm willing to shoulder.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by engcoach on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:10AM (#36259001)
Your desire to "help" others at the cost of social stigma for me is something I find disgusting.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by yomlica8 on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:21AM (#36259184)
People will die as a result of their medical privacy being stripped away, when they forgo care in fear of the effect that stigma has or fear of losing their job due to their medical needs being to expensive or being prosecuted from having a miscarriage or drug use, etc.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by nmca on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:31AM (#36259349)
sure but to engage in the relevant consequentialist reasoning correct you need to argue that this is more people, not just some people

(I'm undecided on the whole thing but this argument as stated is bad)

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by WeylandYutani on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:28PM (#36260256)
Just being pregnant is enough not to get hired because employers hate maternity leave.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by scarby2 on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:03AM (#36258889)
the amount of people who think that social stigma cant be changed is beyond me.

This is one of those cases where when we open things up we realize that just about everyone has or does things that are stigmatized and we have no choice but to stop stigmatizing them, the secrecy and shame are self-reinforcing.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:08PM (#36260832)
> we realize that just about everyone has or does things that are stigmatized and we have no choice but to stop stigmatizing them

Yeah, it almost never actually works out that way, though.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by Nullabillity on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:09PM (#36261694)
Eventually perhaps, but is it fair to demand that everyone subjects themselves to that in the years or decades that that process takes?
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by rocket_surgeron on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:28AM (#36259287)
You are probably like me. To me there is no medical information of any kind that could embarrass or "stigmatize" me or anyone else.

But the vast majority of people are paralyzed by fear that someone might find out they have hemorrhoids.

Others live in a delusional state of paranoia where "duh gubmint" will use the info against them not realizing that any entity, governmental or otherwise, willing to do so will just ignore privacy laws anyways.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:10PM (#36260849)
> To me there is no medical information of any kind that could embarrass or "stigmatize" me or anyone else.

The problem isn't being embarrassed. The problem is suffering real world consequences for certain types of medical treatment, such as problems getting work, renting housing, etc.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by rocket_surgeron on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:06PM (#36261659)
> The problem is suffering real world consequences for certain types of medical treatment, such as problems getting work, renting housing, etc.

Fix that, then? I keep hearing about all of these nightmare scenarios, dreamed up by paranoiacs.

I submit. You are right. Fix THOSE problems instead of killing people.

I'm agreeing with you. What you said happens. We must fix that.

If things are that bad, the entities inflicting these consequences don't care about medical privacy anyways, right?

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:27PM (#36263703)
> I keep hearing about all of these nightmare scenarios, dreamed up by paranoiacs.

Not at all. These are all things that used to be pretty common. That's why medical privacy laws were enacted.

> Fix THOSE problems instead of killing people.

That would be ideal, yes. But nobody has figured out a way to do that.

BTW, I don't think your phrasing is helpful to your cause. It implies it's a black-and-white issue when in reality it's a very complex issue with a ton of nuance.

People die as a result of the lack of medical privacy too, after all.

> the entities inflicting these consequences don't care about medical privacy anyways, right?

No, they don't. But they do care about the huge fines and other legal consequences they risk by not adhering to the law.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by EatingWithForks on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:47AM (#36259618)
Yeah I also wish it wasn't stigmatized for teenagers to go on birth control to control PCOS or whatever, but I sure as fuck am against some random state government putting together "research panels" or whatever of such people without their informed consent.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by tengbretson on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:44PM (#36262236)
> I'm not willing to let tens or hundreds of thousands of people die because of social stigma

How about a comprise then? What if we made it so that you could get unrestricted medical record access for any patient for whom you are willing to to guarantee (under severe financial penalty) will not die?

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by dheera on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:44AM (#36259562)
Yet they leak my medical records to debt collectors every single time, for debts that aren't even mine (when insurance refuses to pay for what they should).
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:07PM (#36260812)
I hear you, but those debts are actually yours. When you get treatment, you're assuming responsibility for the bill. The insurance company is technically reimbursing you, not assuming your debt.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by mindslight on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:33PM (#36261150)
That's certainly the bullshit narrative the billing department vampires want to push on you. But very rarely when you receive medical services is an actual contract being formed. Contracts require well-defined consideration, and some arbitrary figures pulled out of a hat after the fact doesn't meet that bar.
Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:32PM (#36263781)
That's the sort of case that needs to be made to a judge in the course of a lawsuit against the provider, then.

Listen, I'm not saying that this is ethically or morally right. I'm just saying that's the way things actually are (in the US).

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by mindslight on Saturday June 10, 2023 @01:11AM (#36267795)
Why would you proactively sue a provider over a billing issue? You mean a lawsuit from the provider, trying to substantiate the debt they claim you owe?

I've no doubt that there is some assortment of corrupt laws bought by the medical industry that have enabled these blatantly abusive billing practices. But until shakedown victims actually force the issue and publicize it, then those corrupt laws continue to avoid scrutiny.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by dheera on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:48PM (#36263182)
Assuming responsibility for tens of thousands of dollars just to continue existing is NOT how it's supposed to work.

Also, I expect insurance companies to honor their contracts.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by JohnFen on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:30PM (#36263744)
> is NOT how it's supposed to work.

I could not agree more. This problem absolutely ruins lives. I've seen people who've suffered terrible injuries beg not to be taken to the hospital because it would result in devastating financial consequences.

> I expect insurance companies to honor their contracts.

I agree with this as well. But that's a separate issue than who is legally responsible for the debt.

Re:Do No Harm petition: Don't give Big Tech access to our me... by NoZebra120vClip on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:35PM (#36260360)
Doctors almost never act with full information. Doctors don't even want full information. It wastes their time. If you come to a new doctor they will make you fill out a stack of forms where you inaccurately self-report your medical history and then they will toss that in the rubbish bin. If you so much as dare to suggest that a doctor should transfer your old medical records from one place to another, they will vehemently object and question why you would want to do such a thing. In fact it is far easier to sign a release of medical records and authorize their release, than it is to cajole any given Records Department into accepting the transfer of records in any format, much less a machine-readable format that would be useful.

I believe it is a liability for doctors to know a true medical history, and anything not already being treated can be ignored and re-diagnosed later, which of course is an ideal situation for the insurance and the new provider, because you can charge all over again for those diagnostics.

Case in point, I had two EKGs performed on me, one in urgent care and one in the hospital. It was not too long before I was going in for surgery, and a prerequisite was a "12-lead EKG" readout, so naturally the hospital tried to force me to undergo a new one at enormous cost and inconvenience, and I balked, because I already had two perfectly good readouts in hand. They eventually relented, but it was incredibly difficult for them to admit that the test results were valid and acceptable, and this is all part of the scam, to charge as many times as possible for anything that wasn't performed here and now by us.

Likewise with psychiatry and therapists; I've been through multiple clinics and dozens of counselors, and of course each one produces a mountain of case notes. So I always offer and suggest that I sign a release and have all the prior case notes transferred over so that they get to know me better. The answer is always "no". They want to know nothing beyond what is in the intake forms, that they will spend 5 minutes reading. Then we will start my therapy over from Square One with a stranger and I get to recount all my feelings and life experiences over and over and over again, on my dime.