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Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by rcpt on Thursday June 08, 2023 @11:27AM (#36243511)
I'm sorry but you're dreaming of you think that feral cats aren't destroying local bird populations.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by romwell on Thursday June 08, 2023 @11:48AM (#36243903)
I'm sorry, but you seem to be ignorant of the facts.

I have provided extensive references for everything I said. Please read them before typing out your gut response.

While cats, in general, are a threat to birds, these particular cats were not a threat to these particular birds.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by rcpt on Thursday June 08, 2023 @12:07PM (#36244193)
You seriously need a citation to believe that cats kill birds? How the hell do you think they existed for the past million years? jfc

Anyway, here you go (from Nature, not mv-voice) https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

> free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by romwell on Thursday June 08, 2023 @02:54PM (#36246810)
I repeat my request to actually read the words that I wrote, along with the references, and respond to that instead of the emotions you're feeling.

Please read these points carefully:

1. While cats, in general, are a threat to birds, the cats managed by the TNR program on Google Campus were not a threat to burrowing owls in the Shoreline park;

2. Shutdown of the TNR program resulted in the increase of the feral cat population, and had no positive impact on the owls;

3. The primary threat to the burrowing owls is human interference and destruction of habitat. These birds are not particularly threatened by stray cats in the first place.

4. Saying that the general statement applies to a particular case without looking at the facts is a fallacy.

TL;DR: "cats are a threat to birds" doesn't imply that my house cat in the US is a threat to kiwis in New Zealand.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by rcpt on Thursday June 08, 2023 @06:50PM (#36250344)
This is a discussion about NYC. I don't know why you're focused on Mountain View.

Do you think that you can somehow generalize from that to NYC?

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by stefan_ on Thursday June 08, 2023 @09:07PM (#36251793)
Why do I care about the bird population over the cat population? Who's playing god?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by technothrasher on Thursday June 08, 2023 @09:40PM (#36252053)
Because there's a real danger of losing some of these bird species, and absolutely zero danger of losing domestic cats as a species?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by slily on Thursday June 08, 2023 @09:50PM (#36252118)
Let's do this. And when we're done killing all the cats and the rat problem becomes worse and somehow the birds don't seem to return to the filthy and noisy concrete jungle with no trees we can just pretend it never happened.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by teh_klev on Thursday June 08, 2023 @11:06PM (#36252603)
> and the rat problem becomes worse

Cats usually won't tackle rats, this is even mentioned in the article.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by Euphorbium on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:57AM (#36254725)
The rats dont just pop out fully grown, the young rats are an easy prey.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by teh_klev on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:03AM (#36255184)
Haven't you read any James Herbert?

Joking aside, cats aren't going to be very inclined to head into a lair to pick off their young.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by stefan_ on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:13PM (#36252261)
Species are lost all the time, it's just an arbitrary cut from an infinitely expanding evolutionary tree. So it's about as many different of them as possible? Does that strike you as an odd metric?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by the_doctah on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:20AM (#36253084)
Nothing matters and we're just a speck of dust hurtling through the infinite so who cares what happens about anything right?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by neuronic on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:43AM (#36255502)
In my view, yes, nihilism sucks. But making the point that evolution means change is fair. Trying to keep everything as-is forever is fundamentally unnatural and impossible and I don't think that is what conservation should be about.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by neuronic on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:39AM (#36255464)
This is absolutely untrue. Most studies on cat impact on bird species are ridden with incomplete and bad data. In Germany, estimates are around 200 million birds killed by cats every year. But since the total population of birds is estimated at 400 million that would be every second bird! That's insane and grounds for immediate skepticism. Well, it turns out that extrapolating local results to global scenarios does not at all represent what is going on in reality.

For example, while cats might kill a lot of animals in settled areas like NYC that doesn't at all mean that species are endangered as a result of it. Birds don't exclusively live in human settlements and their continental populations might barely be affected by cats as there are sufficient areas outside of human settlements where feral cats are simply non-existent or at least not a problem.

Furthermore, the decline of birds is almost entirely human made - no one doubts this. Habitat loss and insect decline. Reducing the cat problem will simply not have a notable impact at all. Yes, millions of birds are killed by cats but what does that mean in the grand context if billions and billions of birds are killed by humans? It's a drop in the bucket and not worth the effort and I would ask ornithologists to name species that have been wiped out by wild cats in a continental context and not just from Smallstown, Minnesota.

Disclaimer: island scenarios like New Zealand are different due to the locality of the problem.

It's like trying to save ants from some dude stepping on their streets once a day while ignoring a ravaging fungus that is destroying the colony from the inside. But here you are, saying "not stepping on the ant street is also helpful!". Congrats to saving 10 ants while the colony is being decimated by a fungus.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by misnome on Friday June 09, 2023 @07:34AM (#36256290)
You can come clear up the weekly dead birds in our garden throughout nesting season, killed by the local cats, then.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by neuronic on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:42AM (#36270388)
You apparently haven't read my comment then. I already included your concern about birds being killed in and around human settlement. That says nothing about total populations since birds dont exclusively live in your garden. Conversely, cats DO live mostly in and around human settlements.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by throwaway_99999 on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:14PM (#36252268)
We are way past this point. This huge population of cats exists solely because we are breeding cats. Besides that, we are killing lots of other, apparently lesser animals, in order to feed them to our cats. What do you call this, if not playing god?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by MrOwnPut on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:19PM (#36252295)
Cats don't need help breeding. GP even said "feral cat".

I don't know of any "cat breeders". They are just a resilient species.

I suppose we could make some sort of "equity" system for species based on an arbitrary metric, but that's closer to playing God.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by throwaway_99999 on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:30PM (#36252366)
Domestic cats as a species had been introduced to America by humans, and still are explicitly kept and feed by humans. I'd call that breeding. This also sets an easy and natural metric of how many cats should be there: 0.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by MrOwnPut on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:33PM (#36252382)
So your metric is how an animal got to a location?

Birds can fly, not really fair to the feline species concerning which places it's allowed, eh?

Zero cats should be allowed to exist in NA?

No open borders for cats!?

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by guraf on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:33AM (#36254548)
> Zero cats should be allowed to exist in NA?

Zero non neutered cat should be allowed to exist in North America, correct.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by romwell on Friday June 09, 2023 @07:13PM (#36265602)
>Domestic cats as a species had been introduced to America by humans, and still are explicitly kept and feed by humans. I'd call that breeding. This also sets an easy and natural metric of how many cats should be there: 0.

Same applies to humans of non-native descent, I presume?

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by arp242 on Thursday June 08, 2023 @11:12PM (#36252647)
Choosing not to do anything is just as much of a choice as choosing to do something, and is "playing God" in equal amount.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by yabatopia on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:41PM (#36252430)
Humans kill far more birds than feral cats. Agriculture, pesticides, deforestation, destruction of fields and grasslands, the use of mice and rat poison, car traffic, wind turbines, ... it all adds up. It makes feral cats look like amateurs showing up on a gun fight with a pencil.

In the EU, a 2021 study of 378 bird species estimated that bird numbers fell by as much as 19 percent from 1980 to 2017. And that's not because of cats, feral or not.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by rcpt on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:22AM (#36253108)
As long as we're being ridiculous and unserious I suppose you support TNR for humans to?
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by smcl on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:31AM (#36254534)
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

I think we both know this person isn't supporting TNR for humans, don't be silly

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by oefrha on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:03AM (#36253441)
The good ol’ “there are many contributing factors, so how dare you try to solve one of them” argument.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by cgio on Friday June 09, 2023 @06:41AM (#36255888)
“Animals are dying. Let’s kill the animals that kill them” argument I would call it.
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by oefrha on Friday June 09, 2023 @07:42AM (#36256367)
<s>kill the animals</s> breed fewer of those animals

FTFY.

Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by red-iron-pine on Friday June 09, 2023 @04:32PM (#36263780)
the non-native animals (cats) that are disrupting the ecosystem argument
Re:How to Clear 500k Feral Cats from New York’s Streets by bradleyjg on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:04AM (#36252984)
Can we get them to go after the pigeons and rats (aka flightless pigeons)? I’d rather have feral cats, like Rome, than large populations of those two pests.