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Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by wnkrshm on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:50AM (#36223695)
The difference is that now only the owner of a machine profits where before lots of individuals profited. More power to the owners, I guess.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:38AM (#36224006)
The trajectory of ML appears to point towards massive transfer of wealth to capital owners and impoverishment of the working classes.

We need to find a way to distribute the benefits of such developments.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by aloisdg on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:49AM (#36224095)
Maybe there is something to do about workers owning their own means of production.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by dontlaugh on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @04:32AM (#36224370)
All road lead to revolution, but it takes time to build.

Until then, some sabotage may be in order.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:25AM (#36224690)
[always has been.jpg]

Seriously though, I used to think this was mostly a done deal that's being occasionally brought up by people fascinated with socialism or something. But the longer I live, the more I realize that the issue has not meaningfully improved at all - we've only been distracted from it. And it's much, much older than Marx and co. too. This, and not some general fear of technology, was the whole point of the Luddite movement (very relevant in context of AI). And you can probably find examples stretching back way before industrial revolution too.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by satvikpendem on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:39AM (#36224776)
What workers own the means of production in the case of an AI? Democratization via open source works, but it actually extends beyond workers to end users. If all the workers at OpenAI were equal shareholders and owned the means of their production, this would not change anything about them profiting from the company and all of their users. Stallman was and continues to be right, open source and freedom for end users is really the only way.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by WalterBright on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:44AM (#36228348)
Start your own business and you'll own that means of production.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by pbhjpbhj on Thursday June 08, 2023 @05:47PM (#36249666)
Why don't poor people just buy a factory to work in??? /s
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by WalterBright on Thursday June 08, 2023 @10:05PM (#36252225)
Your computer is a means of production.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by ben_w on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:47AM (#36255533)
Yeeaasss, but so is a lathe or a kiln or a chainsaw.

I don't know if OpenAI has actually confirmed what hardware they use or if the press and bloggers did citeogenesis on each other, but the claim is they're using A100 GPUs, and the bigger models have to use several in parallel. I've seen detached houses in Eastern Europe going for the price of two of those cards.

The DGX-2 is (was?) priced more like a detached house in Western Europe; the GH200 they just announced appears to be "if you have to ask, you can't afford it".

This is similar to how, despite that lathes, kilns, and chainsaws can be bought in supermarkets as impulse purchases, industrial versions of each are rather more expensive.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by wnkrshm on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @04:00AM (#36224167)
Imo it's only right to have something that is made of public goods (i.e. everyone's data and human historic record) to become a public good in itself.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by e12e on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:50AM (#36225216)
I agree, but I'm not sure it's all that different from oil, iron ore ore drinking water?
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:19AM (#36227942)
If you train a model and publish it, anyone can copy it for free. How do you make free copies of iron ore?
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @10:27AM (#36227207)
> The trajectory of ML appears to point towards massive transfer of wealth to capital owners and impoverishment of the working classes.

That’s the natural end of capitalism, as has been noted literally since the word “capitalism” waa coined for it (largely, for that reason.)

It is end to which every tool and technology is put under that system, and has nothing to do with the particular technology and everything to do with the system.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by WalterBright on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:45AM (#36228360)
> That’s the natural end of capitalism

No evidence of that.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by s1artibartfast on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:57PM (#36229585)
The capitalist system doesn't preclude workers from acquiring capital or capitalist from working. It also doesn't dictate the relative return on capital investment versus worker labor.

The rate of return on capital is what dictates the concentration of wealth, or conversely, the dispersal of wealth.

The conceptual systems introduced by Marx and others is that only workers can own capital and are based on a set of assumptions about Capital returns versus labor power.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:56PM (#36230625)
> The capitalist system doesn't preclude workers from acquiring capital or capitalist from working.

In the same sense that the US electoral system doesn’t preclude more than two viable parties. The system of property rights that defines capitalism doesn’t specify any limit, but the structure it creates promotes it in function.

> The conceptual systems introduced by Marx and others is that only workers can own capital

No, the conceptual system introduced by Marx rejects the concept of ownership as applied to capital [0], though it favors workers exercising control of the capital to which their labor is applied. Different variants derived from this and related ideas have different specific mechanism for this exercise of control.

[0] When Marxists talk about rejecting/abolishing “private property”, it refers to this, because in the Marxists terminology “private property” refers not to property of non-state individuals and entities in general as it does in current common use, but specifically to property rights in the means of production, i.e., capital.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by s1artibartfast on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:34PM (#36232273)
I understand the carve out in Marx's Theory for non-productive personal property in contrast to the means of production.

That said, I don't see you the distinction between controlling the means of production use for one's labor and owning it, when controlling the means of production also includes allocation of the additional value created using them.

It also is also worth noting how far from Marxist theories current thoughts on socialism and communism have come.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @07:02PM (#36234879)
> That said, I don't see you the distinction between controlling the means of production use for one's labor and owning it

Conditional control while you are a laborer whose labor is applied to particular capital (which, to be fair, is one of many patterns advocated within Marxist-influenced socialism, not the only operationalization of the concept) is distinct from ownership which persists until the owner chooses to alienate the property.

> It also is also worth noting how far current thoughts on socialism and communism have come from Marxist theories. contemporary sentiment seem to advocate that individuals (working or not) are entitled share of the labor value created by others, even if they are in another workplace.

Yeah, its not like Marx said anything like: “In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!” [0]

[0] Except, of course, that he did, in Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by s1artibartfast on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @07:42PM (#36235231)
Im not sure if you are plugging the quote in support or disagreement. The internet is funny that way. Is a very modern take to utterly ignore the lengthy preconditions laid out and jump straight to the conclusion if it means the reader is entitled to free stuff. Why wait for a society where the products of human labor are given freely and consensually when they can simply be taken today.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by tourmalinetaco on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:30PM (#36229153)
> We need to find a way to distribute the benefits of such developments.

It’s called free software and making models at various ‘weight classes’ to support many GPUs. Basically don’t let companies like OpenAI/Google/Microsoft run the show and, ironically, support companies like Facebook who open source their models.

And yes, I know OpenAI has open sourced models in the past, but the fact that they won’t open source ChatGPT, GPT-4, and select other models like DALL-E 1/2 make me wary of them.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by gwright on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:59PM (#36229623)
I don't know how to easily quantify these things but your analysis ignores the other part of the transaction. The consumer of the photos (or ML generated text) benefits through the lower cost, easier access, increased project velocity, etc.

Market disruption due to technology/innovation/progress is nothing new. There have always been winners and losers but the aggregate wealth/value continues to climb. Devising ways to mitigate the loses seems like a more feasible approach than pretending that we can prevent these sorts of changes through regulation or legislation.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by jachee on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:14PM (#36229864)
That’s been the trajectory of capitalism for centuries.

This is just an accentuation and further acceleration thereof.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by ksaj on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:46AM (#36224067)
There are fungi that only barely kill their insect host and then use mind control to drive their bodies around to eventually reproduce.

So there is precedence for this scenario.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by satvikpendem on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:35AM (#36224753)
I'm using Stable Diffusion and I'm profiting. The difference is open vs closed source, not AI in general.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by prepend on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:17AM (#36224998)
All the users of that machine profit. And I guess there are orders of magnitude greater users.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by pessimizer on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @10:49AM (#36227481)
All the users are that machine are renting time from the machine's owner.
Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:18AM (#36227909)
You can run Stable Diffusion on any PC. A $50 desktop PC which is ten years old will generate an image in about 6 minutes. A more modern PC will do it in 2 minutes. That's the CPU. A $300 GPU is dramatically faster. And in a few years the same GPU will be $50.

You can rent the hardware from someone else, but that's a matter of convenience, not affordability.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by e12e on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:48AM (#36225205)
> The difference is that now only the owner of a machine profits where before lots of individuals profited.

Hello post-industrial/ai/ml capitalism.

This development will do to designers, programmers, support what the industrial revolution did to cobblers and weavers ...

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by WalterBright on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#36228440)
> support what the industrial revolution did to cobblers and weavers

Which made cheap shoes and clothes available to everybody.

If you want to buy a tailor made shirt, it'll cost you at least $500. And that's still with machine made cloth. What do you think it would cost if the cloth was made by hand by a weaver?

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by e12e on Thursday June 08, 2023 @07:51AM (#36240316)
> Which made cheap shoes and clothes available to everybody.

I'd argue the efficiency in production led to lower prices - while the concentration in wealth mostly kept buying power/living standards lower for the workers (or; capitalist class reaped an unfair share of productivity gains).

I believe commodisation of "knowledge" work will lead to lower prices (and unfair distribution) too.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by WalterBright on Thursday June 08, 2023 @01:17PM (#36245359)
The standard of living of the poor in America went up all through the 19th century. Things like average height and longevity are strong markers of that. Also, average clothing sizes increased dramatically.

Go take a look at Fort Williams, and at the clothes in it they preserved. They look like kids' clothes. The same for Civil War uniforms. Larger than the FW clothes, but still looking like kid clothes.

I flipped through a high school history book a few years ago, and it insisted that the middle class in America didn't emerge until FDR. This is laughably wrong. It was there from the beginning.

Re:Is AI killing the stock photo industry? A data perspective by mym1990 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @10:21AM (#36227127)
What? Do photographers not need a camera, at times costing thousands or tens of thousands of dollars when including lenses…to make that stock photography?