The laughable inanity about 'Proud Boys White Nationalism' is betrayed literally by their idiot criminal leader who is a person of colour (!!!) as though the MSM wants Americans to sit there like fools and just believe this black guy is the 'Face of White Supremacy', without nuance or context. It's somewhere between Monty Python and Orwell, like Putin saying on TV that 'Russia did not invade Ukraine' and 1/2 of the stupid Russian sheep believing it. The Proud Boys are hooligans. They are literally modelled after Euroepan football hooligans, which is a form of working class gang, the best cultural analogy would be 'Hell's Angels', not the KKK. They definitely have some scary elements and their involvment in Jan 6 was material, but outside of that event, they are compeltely irrelevant.
If you actually visit the more traditional places that happen to be 'White' and also 'Christian' and 'Nationalist' - like Montana, Utah etc. - you'll find very low rates of crime, gun violence, poverty and unemployment - among the lowest in the nation. The nicest, most boring people in America.
Far from being 'a threat' - true white nationalists have basically no intitutional power - they are a very small group, mostly poor, marginalized white trash losers, and aside from some smaller states where they have some political influence, they are not relevant to anything - except for possibly the fact that they support Trump. Now Trump is a giant dirtbag and who will happily take their votes - but he is by far and away not a 'Christian White Nationalist'.
All federal agencies, including law enforcement, FBI/CIA/IRS etc. and even the DoD are inundated with fairly aggressive DEI programs, with some whacky things going unquestioned such as USAF Academy cadets asked to not refer to their parents as 'mom' or 'dad' because it's 'gendered' (and therefore 'exclusive'!) - and even the term 'parent' happens to exclude those who don't have parents - instead aksed to use the term 'caregiver'. Aka "I talked to my 'caregiver' today, they're doing well". With 'DEI Cadets' to enfroce the norms. Which is authoritarian and insane and the ideological opposite of 'Chrsitian White Supremacy'.
Larry Fink, at BlackRock - largest fund in the world ($1 Trillion - larger than most nations) is pushing giant DEI programs in his words 'Diversty has to be forced!' (direct quote) - and it's not uncommon in that world, a bit similar in tech, Hollywood and pop culture is ruled by generally empathetic / pro diversity people.
So where are these influential boogeyman 'Christian White Nationalists'? Well - the FBI does consider them a threat enough to monitor, resulting in a grand total of maybe 2 deaths per year [1]. :( Oh, the horror!
Yes, those evil White Supremacists with their '2 dead' per year, some years 0, which is basically statistical noise.
For refence, lawn mowers kill about 85 Americans per year.
For reference, police kill about 12 unarmed Black men per year, in almost every case there is exceptional context (aka attacking officer, taking officers weapon, pointing replica gun at officer) etc. which is not to imply that 'Police Violence' is not a problem, rather, it's completely misrepresented in pop culture. Take a moment to look at the ethnic breakdown of most police forces and you'll find that since the 1990s they 'look like the people they police' aka LAPD is 1/3 White, 1/3 Latino, 1/3 Black - at all levels all the way to the top. Same in most places. New Orleans aka 'Deep South' has 66% Black cops. Which makes the 'White Supremacist Police!' takeover thing ridiculous at face value, notwithstanding some smaller communities.
And what about non-institutional hate crimes? Gosh, I'm sorry to jam your high man, but Black people are actually more likely to commit hate crime than Whites. [2] Oh no, the data is starting to hurt. :(
In the area of politics it can 'feel' like ultra left/right sometimes, but remember that 'abortion restrictions' and objecting to 'the definition of a woman as being someone who identifies as a woman' - are legitimate grounds for disagreement - not some whacko people arguing against obvious truths. After the overturn of Roe v. Wade what suprised us all was how many women had far more nuanced views than we would have thought. And that one is ongoing.
Unfortunateley, Black men in the USA commit 5x more violent crime than other groups, and are the leading cause of death among that cohort. Sadly, majority African American parts of the US are some cases the most dangerous places in the entire world. The mass violence, mysoginy, anti-social behaviours entrap entire communities into systems of poverty far more than any other social condition - even the obvious and legitimate things like lack of school funding or other sublty systemic issues. Unfortunately, the problem is that the kids are not showing up for class and causing violence when they do - it's not the lack of math teachers. If only that were the issue, such as it was in the 1960's, we'd have a much better chance at fixing things.
Nations of mostly 'White People', especially those with 'Christian heritage' are the most embracing and open places in the world for all people to settle within, far more so than even the very polite places like Japan, Korea, and even Sweden where they will be civil, but 'never truly accept outsiders'. Google OECD PISA standardized tests and you'll see that even immigrants to America score just as well as regular American students (after normalizing for income), which is far, far better than even 'top education nations' like Korea and Finland, where the local kids do amazingly well, but the immigrants fare poorly, because they are marginalized unlike in America where they excel.
So saying 'White People Should Die' is hate speech, along with anything along the lines of 'Kill all the XXX' people and by any reasonable and civic measure, it's obviously wrong, and there are no arguments for that, including the 'White Nationalist Supremacist Delusion'.
If you want to restrict people to material facts particularly related to violence, then I'm afraid you're not going to like it because the data does not look good for 'people of colour', Bro. The facts are harsh howeve you want to scream about it. It's bad, and it takes constant misidrectionn, blame and hysteria to keep basic realities suppressed. The MSM is already trying to rehabilitate BLM after $10's of millions of fraud and embezellment (!!) as though the failure and shame of that institution would somehow be too much for 'dumb Americans' to handle, as though they can't deal with nuance and recognize 'it's complicated' when certain movements, however they may have some degree of legitimacy, face challenges with people and money ... which I think most American can understand.
[1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrori...
[2] https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate-crime-statistics
You're just promoting the perennialy problematic ideal that "The people I don't agree with are zombies and are trying to take over!" and therefore the justification of that toxicity on social media.
Ironically, this is not entirely dissimilar to the logic of actual, loony white supremacists.
Unfortunately, there are few voices willing to play to anything but their choir.
Fortunately, most people are actually good people, and willing to have the discussions about 'the hard and nuanced things' when they're out from under the thumb of various toxic populist forces and narratives.
There is no "nuance" in that mindset. It is factually wrong. It doesn't work today. It wallows in nostalgia. The nostalgia is, in part, to make up for the fact that the red pill contains no culture: No art, no literature, no music, no theatre - nothing that makes America a global cultural beacon, and nothing that women would want to spend any time with. It is a loser mindset, and deservedly so.
Do you realize that's the midsest of bigotry?
"America is going fascist, people who don't with me agree are facists!"
That's your 'nuanced', modern take?
"There is no "nuance" in that mindset."
Yes - there is no nuanced in your own apparent mindset.
Are you reading your own words?
Have you considered that maybe your cartoonish characterization of those 'magic boogeymen' is wrong - and completely lacking in naunce?
Use some logic here:
'Proud Boys are racist more like Hell's Angels than the KKK - and - they are idiots who don't have any power'
Does that statement truly feel red-pill to you?
Or maybe that's a bit of a 'nuanced' take?
'Trump is a life-long Democrat who supports gay marriage, abortion, has not been in a Church in 20 years and could not recite the Lord's Prayer - but who will happily accept the votes of anyone that will give them to him - is an Authoriarian Pig (and a serious risk) - but is obviously not a 'White Christian Nationalist'.'
Again - that sounds like 'Apple Pie America' rhetoric' to you?
Or is that actuaally a more nuance take?
'Abortion and 'definition of woman', are complicated nuanced issues, and that Americans have a diversity of views on those subjets that we have to respect and contend with, and those who disagree with progressives are not necessairly radicals'.
That's the statement of an racist old fart from the South?
Or maybe a more civic take?
Pointing out existentially damaging corruption and embezzelment within a social rights movement (BLM), which for some reason the media wants to mostly ignore - but that Americans are smart enough to handle the complexity of that situation ....
... is somehow 'stuck in 1950's worldview'?
My friend - those are not the staments of an 'American Christian Nationalist Red Pill' person - far from that.
Obviously.
So why would you even think that?
There's a hint here:
"No art, no literature, no music, no theatre!"
You believe there's a big right wing movement that's going to take over America that that is somehow against 'art and literature' ???
You saw 'Footloose' in 1984 and developed your entire 'antifacist' worldview around that, have not changed it since, and pigeonhole everyone into it ???
Paridoxically, these are comical and narrow antifacist views from the 1950s - which I am afraid to tell you are bigoted.
So to get you 80 years up to date: almost all Americans don't like racism, they would all want better schools if it meant an an reduction in crime and increased civility and prosperity, Americans are open and gregarous and accepting people - but - many (maybe even most) are not going to agree with some of the more assertive progressive ideals. Now you can rest well not worrying about a 'Nazi Takoever'.
Lets start with a true statement of yours:
> Almost all Americans don't like racism.
This is a true fact. However it says nothing about systemic racism, or racist cops, or racist politicians. Me being a left-wing bigot would state that the latter is bad and should be abolished, and might make a statement like: “Anyone working against the abolition of systemic racism is part of the problem.” You will probably say this is a bigoted statement, and deserves the same scrutiny and moderation as those who claim we should further systemic racism, and state something like “Cops are justified in policing black majority neighborhoods harder than other neighborhoods”.
This falls into the paradox of tolerance. See if you disallow both our speeches, as they are equally bigoted, you are favoring the status quo, and if systemic racism does indeed exist, you are tolerating it’s continued existence. This is where your horseshoe theory fails. Reality is much more like a fishhook theory. Where the centrist take will always be closer to the far right.
I’ve been playing into your rhetoric, but just so you know, you cannot call anti-fascism bigoted without finding your self in a paradox. A slave owner that hates their slaves is an abuse, a slave that hates their master is liberation.
We've had to ask you this before, so if you'd please fix this, we'd be grateful.
Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
We've had to ask you this before, so if you'd please fix this, we'd be grateful.