News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by adeon on Friday June 02, 2023 @05:35PM (#36171059)
Around year 2009-2010, I worked in public sector in Helsinki in the real estate department. I worked the phone handling tenants calling and needing repairs. A large portion of the tenants were people from the homeless program. At the time I did not know this program was unusual.

My understanding of how it worked was that if you were functional enough and willing, you could walk into a certain building and they'd get you an apartment very quickly, although not sure if on the spot (I didn't work that part, just repairs part). I sometimes moved big bundles of keys for newly vacated or repaired apartments from the real estate building to the social workers in the homeless building they can then give out to new tenants.

I've now lived San Francisco for 5+ years and Helsinki basically does not have homeless people compared to what I've seen here.

I wondered a lot why California seems to be failing at the homeless problem. I see at least one comment here in threads that is saying that homeless are drug addicts and should be forced to go into rehab as a condition to give a home. While I was working for Helsinki I rarely heard anyone suggest the people being given homes needed to pay that back somehow, it was seen as obvious that the main problem is not having a home and the other problems can be dealt with later, and it's inhumane to make demands.

I don't know if "housing first" would actually work in California. Housing is super expensive, and I think California also has a lot more homeless than Finland ever did.

The ex-homeless tenants tended to need more repairs and care. I remember some funny/weird stories like we had a woman who could not use the toilet in her apartment because it was bright green and that caused her panic attacks. And some other tenant who painted literally everything (ceilings, windows, cabinets, furnite, floors, etc.) black.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by kelnos on Friday June 02, 2023 @06:18PM (#36171538)
> I wondered a lot why California seems to be failing at the homeless problem.

My take on it (after living in SF for many years):

1. Many homeless people do have mental illnesses and/or drug addiction problems (for some, this is the result of their homelessness, for others it's in part the cause). California is very much against involuntarily putting people in psychiatric hospitals or drug treatment programs. This largely due to backlash over abuses from decades ago, where people were put into horrible conditions in mental institutions.

2. I think a housing-first program would absolutely work, but it's politically infeasible. Most people would seemingly prefer to have homeless people all over the streets and sidewalks when the alternative is to give them free housing, because it's "not fair" to the people who've worked to pay for their own housing.

3. The option of busing/flying homeless people out of a high-cost city like SF and into a lower-cost region where their needs can be met is also politically fraught. There are (voluntary) programs that help homeless people travel to a place where they have family who can help them, though I don't think it's used as a solution as often as it could be. But the idea of forcibly moving homeless people to a random place or places where they have no connection or support network is considered inhumane and a violation of rights.

I think #2 would be more acceptable to people if #3 could be used more, since presumably people could be housed in a location where housing is much cheaper. As much as I'm not super comfortable with the idea of just forcibly moving people to a different location, I think it overall can be better for the people involved, if it's done well. But that's the trick: can we actually ensure that the people relocated elsewhere will have their needs met, and will end up in clean, well-maintained housing?

Beyond that, I think we need to get over our aversion toward requiring people to go into (and stay in) psychiatric care or drug rehab. This shouldn't be a requirement for receiving housing; it should happen concurrently with being housed, though a live-in rehab program is probably appropriate for many people, at least to start. But I think refusing treatment should just not be an option.

And as a public health issue, and just an issue of keeping our spaces a nice, clean, safe place for everyone to live, ultimately I think we should make homelessness illegal, as long as we can provide a good alternative for every single person in that situation.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by dbcurtis on Friday June 02, 2023 @06:45PM (#36171811)
> Many homeless people do have mental illnesses and/or drug addiction problems (for some, this is the result of their homelessness, for others it's in part the cause). California is very much against involuntarily putting people in psychiatric hospitals or drug treatment programs. This largely due to backlash over abuses from decades ago, where people were put into horrible conditions in mental institutions.

This. I am old enough to remember those bad old days. We have simply replaced one form of inhumanity with another. There are people who need our compassion and help. We should give it to them. We also need to protect against abuse of and/or by the system. Why is this so hard to accomplish?

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by mytake on Friday June 02, 2023 @07:23PM (#36172104)
I would assume it is because providing compassion would win over protecting taxpayer from abuse everytime. Providing compassion is taxpayer money. Preventing abuse is self motivated. Also If giver is 100% compassionate no one would dare complain even if they are against it. If 1 abuser is denied due to abuse the whole govt will get blamed for not being compassionate enough without rock solid lawyer/political level proof
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by j2bax on Friday June 02, 2023 @07:04PM (#36171952)
I wonder if there are areas/towns that could use additional sources of revenue/jobs that larger cities could help subsidize with homeless relocation services and funding.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by 0xB31B1B on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:28PM (#36172513)
RE #2, the main political issue in SF at the moment is that the homeless advocacy non profits want permanent supportive housing as the only solution, they advocate against shelters temporary group and sober housing, and they also advocate against any compulsory programs. To them, the housing provided must be good enough that the meth addicts willingly chose housing over street life. This isn’t workable.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by jackson1442 on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:29PM (#36173142)
I think #3 could possibly work _if_ it was in conjunction with being housing-first. If SF had an agreement with another city with available housing, I think busing people there _if and only if they have a home ready_ could be a really reasonable solution.

No need to deal with the high housing prices of the bay area, and you're ensuring the person has a place to live when they get to where they're going. Definitely don't do this involuntarily, but I imagine many people (once such a program proves itself) would voluntarily sign up.

--

Random miscellaneous comment- I found it really challenging to get a part time job around where I lived without a car. One of the interview questions was typically "how will you get to work" and I could see a change in the interviewer's demeanor when I responded that I would walk or have someone drive me. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get a job without a permanent address on top of that.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by bombcar on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:22PM (#36173383)
You’d basically have to build a new city for it because otherwise the residents of said city are going to be quite unhappy.

Maybe you could revitalize and absolutely dying city somewhere by hiring everyone who lives there to support the incoming population.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by jltsiren on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:27PM (#36172503)
> I think California also has a lot more homeless than Finland ever did.

Finland had a massive homelessness problem after WW2. Many homes were destroyed in the war, and many people from lost territories had to be resettled. Most working age men were veterans, and mental issues were common.

The problem persisted even after the "deserving" homeless had been housed due to popular attitudes. Vagrancy laws were still in force, making homelessness effectively a crime if you didn't behave. It wasn't until the 80s that the society started seeing homelessness as a problem that should be solved.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by Mizoguchi on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:44PM (#36173495)
What Finland did not have was a drug epidemic affecting over 2/3 of their homeless population.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by than3 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:01AM (#36175236)
Its hard because the drug dealers follow where the vulnerable populations go. Crime increases because the drugs increase as the populations shift locations.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by coffeebeqn on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:32PM (#36172544)
Finland also has a very robust social safety network unlike California/US. Homelessness is usually a symptom of something else. Addiction, mental health issues, financial crisis of some sort, etc. Most of these are escapeable given the right support. But once you pile them all on with no escape - well then you have market street.

If you don’t fix any of the other issues then you just end up throwing money in a bottomless pit on housing

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by bombcar on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:25PM (#36173402)
I suspect if you rounded up all the homeless in California and dumped them in Finland you’d quickly overload their systems.

After all the entire country of Finland has fewer people than the SF metro area (5m vs 7m).

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by HWR_14 on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:48PM (#36173514)
The systems in Finland wouldn't be overloaded if Finland got the SF tax base as well as the homeless problem.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by 2devnull on Saturday June 03, 2023 @03:53AM (#36174611)
The tax base is correlated with population size.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by HWR_14 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @05:45AM (#36175161)
So is the number of homeless. That's exactly my point.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by Mizoguchi on Saturday June 03, 2023 @12:15AM (#36173648)
It takes a huge effort to sober up and it is almost never a voluntary action.

Having experienced drug addiction, even with a strong support system of relatives and friends rallying around you with love but also holding you accountable for your recovery and dragging your arse to therapy three times a week, making sure you stick to the program and take your medications, with all that it is still very hard to get out, particularly if you are on stuff like heroin and meth.

I just don't see how the homelessness problem in the US will ever be solved just by wishful thinking that by giving people a home, meals, clothes and clean needles they will by themselves get well and leave the streets.

It will never happen that way, and the right solution, which is forced rehab and medications, is ironically seen as inhumane.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by 2devnull on Saturday June 03, 2023 @03:59AM (#36174635)
That’s a solution to drug addiction. Homelessness is not coterminous with drug addiction. You can be a drug addict with a home quite easily. It’s hard to be homeless and not use drugs or drink. You have numerous incentives to use and almost no incentives not to.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by horns4lyfe on Saturday June 03, 2023 @09:08AM (#36176382)
Take a stroll down the streets of SF or Portland and try to tell me it’s not an issue of drug addiction. There are already shelters in these cities for people in dire financial straits that aren’t addicts; the problem is they (and the rest of us) have to share these and other public spaces with deranged meth addicts. That’s what makes the current system untenable.
Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by TaxFungus on Saturday June 03, 2023 @12:49PM (#36178200)
> You have numerous incentives to use

What are those incentives? Asking as someone who never felt any desire to use. (Also never been to SF or US for that matter.)

> almost no incentives not to

Isn’t money a pretty big incentive?

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by yurishimo on Saturday June 03, 2023 @02:25PM (#36179180)
Many incentives are physical in nature. Can't afford food? Drugs and alcohol will make you forget you're hungry. It's more comfortable to sleep on the cold/hard ground if you're so high you can't feel anything at all.

You would be surprised what sort of drugs these people are using. They aren't paying for cocaine. They spend all day begging for pocket change to scrounge up $10 for some crap meth-like drugs who's sole purpose it to make you not feel anything. For the 4-8 hours after they take the drugs, they can forget everything they hate about their life and maybe fall asleep.

Realistically, strangers are quite happy to buy food for homeless people if they ask. So then the incentive is to get money to for "entertainment" and relaxation in form of drug use.

Re:California Spent $17B on Homelessness. It’s Not Working by stcroixx on Sunday June 04, 2023 @10:07AM (#36185715)
Most drug addicts lose their housing after some time, so housed drug addicts are temporary and in the way to being homeless. Addicts don’t work reliably enough to pay monthly expenses. They also steal and vandalize from people offering them housing, so again, very temporary until they wear out their welcome.