Most of the memecoins seem to just be money raising vehicles to bolster exchange profits
You probably have a very specific image of NFTs that was fed to you by crypto opponents and which is incomplete and naive. That doesn’t mean that I think you missed out on anything. That’s subjective
To take one of your examples- gating auth to a community.. the community is usually an off-chain centralized thing like Discord. Due to that, the auth logic sits behind closed doors. Verifying an NFT has no advantages over verifying a random string that only the intended user has. i.e. traditional bearer tokens of some sort.
The only advantage of NFTs is in systems that are completely decentralized or in systems that care about verifying a wallet for some reason (_not_ the same thing as verifying a user who goes through the centralized auth of discord or xbox)
So, for example, if the community itself were completely 100% on-chain. This doesn't exist because chains cannot scale the way simple socket servers do. There may be some chats or games that operate on-chain, but they are slow and feel like 30 year old tech.
Afaik the most popular use case for chains is trading crypto assets. Here, NFTs can be useful for establishing auth (or other on chain utilities like the concentrated liquidity you mentioned), but then it gets to the parent's point - for someone who doesn't care about trading crypto, there isn't a compelling use case, since it all boils down to "beanie babies" - the difference is that it's not the nfts that are the beanie babies, it's the crypto ecosystem driven by circular supply/demand.
I’m so tired of seeing people confidently post like this about crypto. There has been so much effort put into explaining, you really have no excuse anymore to parrot it.
Very easy rebuttal: NFTs can be minted in exchange for currency and can be traded between owners later – both functionalities rely on infrastructure that already exists. More complex rebuttal: you can get peer-to-peer (and even peer-to-pool) loans using your NFT as collateral (again, using permissionless infrastructure that is already built for you). How is any of this applicable right now to a HTTP header?!
Also, the only people I ever heard of mentioning “videogames fully on chain” are crypto opponents; they try to come up with the most bizarre scenarios, to “prove” that crypto is inadequate. It’s so irrational.
> Afaik the most popular use case for chains is trading crypto assets.
Yeah, it’s almost like blockchains are designed to be financial infrastructure. At least you got the basics right, I guess.
nftifi.com: "secure a loan funded by a lender seeking to earn returns from their investment."
Lol, It's part of the grift.
So can bearer tokens, client certificates, concert tickets, etc. Put up a webpage that takes payments (including crypto if you so desire) and hands out whatever authentication instrument you want upon successful payment.
> can be traded between owners later
A conventional, non-chain-based system can also include this functionality. Presenting your current bearer token and a contact for the desired new owner would invalidate your current token and email them a new one.
Any system where this kind of transfer makes sense and is willing to allow this kind of trade already has it - you can freely trade video game cosmetic items on most games, you can resell tickets on Ticketmaster (albeit for a fee), etc. If the platform owner doesn't want you to trade then NFTs are of no help either because the blockchain has a publicly-visible history of all trades which the platform owner can use to refuse access to any NFTs that have been traded (so if you want to trade you need to trade the actual bearer token - or private key in a cryptocurrency world - and hope the seller is honest and didn't keep a copy - again crypto/NFTs doesn't help here either).
The problem is that NFTs only make sense on-chain. As soon as you go off-chain you lose most/all of the advantages of NFTs, at which point you may as well rely on an authentication instrument also issued and managed off-chain.
No it doesn’t. That was the whole point. The examples you gave had to each build their own in-house bespoke infrastructure for this functionality. With blockchains it already exists, it’s secure and any app or user can start using it right away.
The difference between Firebase and Ethereum+metamask isn't a significant development cost for anything beyond a toy weekend project.
The difference is only about trust.
The argument you want to make is that we shouldn't trust Firebase, they could steal our auth tokens and act on our behalf without our permission, so we need trustless decentralized solutions.
That would be a valid argument, but a hard sell to an audience that doesn't buy the premise. I'm not going to debate it.
However, it has nothing to do with the technical layer of auth which is just "prove that you know the secret" in all cases.
Either you don't understand how this works, or you're deliberately avoiding the point.
Where do you think Metamask stores your private key?
It would be trivial for Firebase to release a browser extension that used LocalStorage to store the secret, like Metamask, instead of regular web storage.
However, in blockchain it's the combo of your private key to sign your wallet, along with the consensus engine where decentralized voting decides to accept the generation and association of new tokens.
In centralized servers, it's the combo of your credentials to login, along with the servers that update the database.
Once you own a token, you can create signatures for it that other peers can validate. For example
https://firebase.google.com/docs/auth/admin/create-custom-to...
I've already addressed your points about collateral and loans. That's purely business logic, and has nothing at all to do with NFTs (which are _only_ user<>token_id mappings)
So if i have a software licence and i want to exchange it for a concert ticket that a stranger doesn’t need anymore, where precisely do i go, today, to make this happen? What’s the app name or the website i go to? Because i know exactly where to go to exchange NFTs, in a secure, configurable and trustless manner.
> That's purely business logic
Call it whatever you want, the infrastructure that enables it and that is already functional today is only compatible with NFTs.
This doesn't even make sense for most chains since software licenses generally depend on some sort of secrets or drm that can't work on transparent chains (anyone can look at the tx and impersonate the owner to grab an activation code).
The actual product and ecosystem of these things is the hard part. You can't actually do anything at all with NFTs because they are merely mappings of users to random strings.
They have absolutely zero utility in and of themselves. Not as rights to jpgs and certainly not as proof of concert ticket ownership.
The business logic is what makes it all actually work, and can be applied far more easily in centralized systems.
Again, the usefulness in Blockchain is not authorization tokens, it's decentralized consensus, which is only useful insofar as you distrust the centralized alternative.
The auth token itself, whether NFT or any other bearer-like, is neither innovative nor interesting nor inherently useful. It only becomes useful where decentralization is useful and compelling products use it for practical needs.
I'm repeating myself now, no point in beating a dead horse.
> NFTs can be minted in exchange for currency and can be traded between owners later
The part of dApps that recognizes NFT ownership for releasing funds is just business logic that can be replaced with anything we can imagine - including but not limited to checking the storage for an Address->RandomString lookup (in fact, if you squint, that _is_ what's happening in transactions due to the step that verifies wallet signatures via cryptographic hashes)
There is nothing at all in the spec that allows for them to have any special meaning in terms of vouchers for currency
> More complex rebuttal: you can get peer-to-peer (and even peer-to-pool) loans using your NFT as collateral
I don't think you understand how NFTs work. This isn't even a more complex rebuttal, NFT contracts don't care if the owner is another contract or a human with a wallet. They only care about the owner to token id mapping. If anything, p2p loans is a _simpler_ example because you're moving the logic out of contracts and into, perhaps, humans who decide to act on nft transfers. It's a weird example imho, but regardless, it's only an extension of the above points.
> How is any of this applicable right now to a HTTP header?!
In HTTP, you acquire a random string (via some web app), and then you later provide it to prove authorization
In Blockchain, you acquire a random public/private keypair (via wallet generation), and you later sign data with this random key in order to prove authorization
In NFTs, you use the Blockchain infrastructure to sign transactions that associate you as the owner with arbitrary token ids.
Do you not see that it's fundamentally the same thing?
> Also, the only people I ever heard of mentioning “videogames fully on chain” are crypto opponents; they try to come up with the most bizarre scenarios, to “prove” that crypto is inadequate. It’s so irrational.
Ok. I mean, I've hands-on deployed CW721 contracts on cosmos with a Unity frontend for on-chain gaming demos. Your ad-hominem attacks are pretty weird from where I'm sitting and, frankly, reek of "dunning-kruger effect". But I don't want to get into a pissing contest, let's stick to facts:
1. Most chains require you to sign transactions all the time. It's a crappy UX. Near avoids this to some extent, and it's a clientside thing that can be skipped, but generally at the expense of security most users aren't comfortable with.
2. Transaction time is slow af compared to what you get with regular socket servers. I'm talking a difference of speed in terms of decades of progress. Not years. Decades.
3. Nodes go out of sync, you have race conditions, there are real problems to solve that robust game server tech deals with and blockchain doesn't concern itself with. Working around these are doable but painful and not out of the box.
4. Most games depend on randomization and/or hidden state that clients cannot be made aware of to prevent cheating. There are some chains like Secret Network that propose solutions to this, but overall, blockchain is transparent in ways that are showstoppers for on-chain games.
> Yeah, it’s almost like blockchains are designed to be financial infrastructure. At least you got the basics right, I guess.
Yup.
Rephrased, in a game that depends on proprietary centralized servers, what do I gain by having a public ledger that the game can query to say I own some asset? Or, alternatively, in a game that recognizes arbitrary decentralized permissions, what do I gain by having proprietary centralized servers? Let's avoid flowery language and deal with reality:
Scenario 1) I buy a sword from Joe on OpenSea. Epic games recognizes NFTs as a generic spec and lets me import it and use in the game. That's wonderful, but in this case I do not need to buy anything from Joe, I can just mint my own sword for free, since they'll recognize any spec-compliant contract.
Scenario 2) I buy a sword from Epic on OpenSea. Epic games only recognizes NFTs that they have the authority to mint. Yay. But now why didn't I just buy it from Epic directly, since I already depend on them fully for auth (they can just migrate the nft contract at will), what does having it on Ethereum add?
Scenario 3) Just like Scenario 2, but Epic recognizes a list of official partners that they trust but do not own. Meh. it's not that interesting. Might be a little more interesting if those partners are themselves DAO-controlled. Still, I think it's more in the category of "kinda neat" instead of "gamechanging"
Scenario 4) I earn a "high score" NFT by playing an Epic game, and they mint an NFT for me (I've gone through their login _and_ associated my wallet with their account). Other games recognize this specific NFT address as being owned by Epic and give special utility. Again, this is pointless, we've already placed all our trust in Epic's closed system, they might as well just expose an endpoint
Fully on-chain ecosystems with no leaks are a different beast imho. Decentralization is cool! It's just extremely crappy for game ux right now. I expect the tech here to catch up eventually. When it does, we can have:
Scenario 5) Doesn't exist now - but I play an on-chain game and earn some NFT. This is then recognized in another on-chain game that gives added functionality. Everything is governed by DAO. Interop can be voted in
This is cool. However, what's innovative about this is that it's basically open-source collaborative business. I do think that's pretty huge, in theory, if it took off. The hard part would be the actual programming and game design to make the interop interesting. The NFT part is still just an auth token, nothing more.
Literally read my comment that you replied to.
> Scenario 5) Doesn't exist now - but I play an on-chain game and earn some NFT. This is then recognized in another on-chain game that gives added functionality. Everything is governed by DAO. Interop can be voted in
This is how Illuvium works right now.
This is not what I meant at all
Their videos which tease advanced game mechanics look like pure hype to raise money from the gullible. Their white paper says nothing about how this works and their repo has no code.
Here's what I want to know:
Player 1 shoots. Can player 2 see the trajectory of the shot before it hits them?
If yes- how do they avoid cheating?
If no- how is this on-chain?
Eagerly waiting an answer to that
There are many more problems for on-chain games (that are not just trading with pretty skins), but let's start here
(probable spoiler alert: they don't have an answer to that, they don't actually have any on-chain physics or game mechanics beyond trading crypto assets, they only made the demo video to dupe investors)
There’s gameplay demos on youtube dude. There are users beta testing the games.
> they don't actually have any on-chain physics
Again, on-chain physics is stupid. Illuvium is just an example where the assets you obtain in one game are also integrated in a different game (interoperability, because you brought it up as something cool that you didn’t think existed yet).
There no practical use case there, unless the other games are pretty much the same. Unless you mean cross-platform, in which case who gets to keep the money you spent?
> that gives added functionality. Everything is governed by DAO. Interop can be voted in
What I mean by functionality is _actual_ functionality. Like, I earn a shield in one game and now it lets me deflect hits with new animations in another, so the DAO would need to vote in code changes. This is what I meant by interop too.
Not being able to see JPGs that you import across games. Like I said, I built something like that as a weekend project and custom cw721 contracts and unity. It's not hard. It's also not interesting to me.
Yes, literally how Illuvium games work. Eg in the mobile city-building game you build factories that extract minerals, which are then available either to trade with other players or to use in the desktop MMORPG as materials to forge weapons.
Like for example if these materials let you build new kinds of structures in Fortnite, if Fortnite were controlled by a DAO, which also implies that the code is running on-chain, because who owns the keys to upload to the Microsoft store etc.
What's the 1% was used for ? I to this date haven't seen actual use case that wouldn't be either useless or "why you can't just a database, you own all of the ecosystem around it anyway".
BTC was supposed to be liquid as a market for compute by posing and solving challenges to give it an intrinsic value — and the people who gimped it for “Digital (Fools) Gold” are now complaining about scammers misusing the technology?
Well, at least I get to start my day with a laugh.
The only person who has ever reduced scripts functionality is Satoshi.
But the conartist pretending to be Satoshi has been paying people to claim otherwise. It's easily falsified.
> BTC was supposed to be liquid as a market for compute by posing and solving challenges to give it an intrinsic value
Citation needed. That doesn't even make sense: You can't give the Bitcoin currency itself "intrinsic value" just because people use it to buy or sell some kind of good or another.
Right now, there’s no native market for BTC to either drive its adoption or create a value even in the presence of inflation. Which is why its “killer app” has remained circumventing financial controls — as that’s the service its network provides. In contrast to ETH.
(It also seems to be a non-sequitur. If you want to pay people to perform computation for you only the most minimal functionality from Bitcoin's script is required to do so in a trustless manner, e.g. https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-conting... )
You've also appear to have ignored my correction on your "stopped" and "BTC was supposed to" remarks, if you're engaging in this discussion in good faith and were simply mistaken it would be polite to retract your error.
This can be (and was prototyped as) a marketplace for optimization problems — until the implementation moved in another direction. Creating a marketplace where the goods can automatically be obtained for tokens is different than fiat currency in meaningful ways and provides a reason for people to buy the tokens at all.
That any money can be used for all that BTC is good for (except evading bank controls) is why there’s slowed adoption following that change.
- - - -
I didn’t respond because thats not my understanding, but arguing over old history isn’t a productive use of time.
Accusing me of “bad faith” because I didn’t respond how you wanted me to and instead chose to engage in the productive part of the discussion is itself poor conversational etiquette — particularly when you didn’t bother to provide any evidence for your claim. Despite claims that doing so would be easy.
Perhaps you should set the example of politeness you purportedly expect.
1. That it was Satoshis intention that Bitcoin would have intrinsic value resulting from acting as a "a marketplace for optimization problems" and that this was his vision of bitcoin.
This is false and I don't believe be supported by anything ever posted by Satoshi or any prior version of Bitcoin.
To make a positive argument: There is no mention of that in the Bitcoin whitepaper (which makes no mention of Script at all), nor in Satoshi's descriptions of Bitcoin: e.g. https://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-sou...
Satoshi even wrote specifically on the origin of Bitcoin's value and didn't make any mention of this intention you suggest: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583.msg11405#msg1140... -- even arguably refuting the claim that he thought Bitcoin was intended to have any intrinsic value.
I don't believe using Bitcoin to trustlessly pay for solutions to problems was ever mentioned or discussed by Satoshi, it's possible he considered it but he certainly didn't market bitcoin on that basis. If he had I think it would have rightfully been criticized as not very interesting or important.
2. Specific persons "stopped BTC from having smart contracts via a full featured VM, moving it away from Satoshi’s vision"
I'm aware of well funded campaigns from a con artist fraudulently claiming to be Satoshi making this false allegation so I understand how you could have just been suffering from misinformation on this point, but it's been corrected now and I'd be happy to elaborate on it to whatever level you're interested in.
The reason I've asked for a retraction is because the claim isn't just objectively false-- it's an accusation that persons performed a potentially tortious or even criminal act. Because it's a damaging allegation and one that has been specifically targeted at me, I think I'm entitled to insist that you substantiate it (which you cannot because it's false) or withdraw it.
I'm perfectly happy to talk through any confusion or misunderstanding-- my apologies if you felt my response escalated to an accusation of bad faith too rapidly. From my perspective you made a serious accusation then when it was countered you simply disengaged with it, which to me seemed like you lacked a genuine interest in getting to the truth.
2a. "there’s slowed adoption following that change"
Unless you're referring to Satoshi removing[1] a number of script opcodes that allowed unbounded memory usage and other vulnerabilities in July 2010 there has been no reduction in the functionality of Bitcoin's VM. Presumably not, since virtually all adoption of Bitcoin occurred long after that point. Nor was it a change that produced the sorts of limitations you think exist.
[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/757f0769d8360ea043...
3. "are themselves bounties which can be automatically claimed, eg by posing SAT problems to the network"
Notwithstanding the points at 1. and 2. it's always been possible to make Bitcoin payments which are trustlessly dependent on solving an arbitrary computer specifiable problem. This works fine today and requires very minimal properties from the system, I provided you with a link to an example demonstration. In that example I used a large sudoku instead of SAT because it's better known to a lay audience, but it's equivalently NP-complete.
> particularly when you didn’t bother to provide any evidence for your claim. Despite claims that doing so would be easy
I am particularly confused by this remark: What easily sourced claim did I make that I failed to source? I provided you with a link to a concrete demonstration of trading a solution for Bitcoin, which I believe disproves the central thesis of your remark: the thing you say can't be done can be.
(Though I still don't agree that it provides any intrinsic value to Bitcoin: The ability to make escrows for information that don't require third parties is a reason that Bitcoin is superior to legacy forms of money, but you can just as well say that for its other positive properties such as the ability to be sent world wide online, the fact that payments are made without an intermediary that can block them, etc. I don't think it's a controversial point that properties make Bitcoin a better form of money compared to some other form of money don't constitute intrinsic value because they're not exclusive.)
For your other factual claims 1, 2, and 2a (as I've labeled them): You are asserting something happened which I say is pure fiction. It's generally not easy to provide a citation to prove a negative but if they had happened it would be easy for you to provide supporting material (e.g. the commits making the change in popular bitcoin software).
1. Discussions in the early BTC community and forums, which is why I stepped beyond the debate as that’s not something easy to document now and the debate isn’t a productive use of time.
2. That’s a ridiculous claim; there’s nothing “tortious or potentially criminal” in changing a software in a way I think is dumb or leaves fewer features.
You seem to have hang ups on this topic you’re taking out on me — and as such, can’t handle that my opinion is based on my experience of early BTC, not whatever “misinformation” you’re envisioning since. That’s deeply disrespectful of me — and why (again) I was stepping past what I saw as an unproductive discussion. There’s no way I’ll be able to document to you something a decade ago, largely from in person discussions.
2a. The removal of the math op codes was a poor choice of how to handle security — but drastically reduced the ability of the network.
3. I’ll look at your example closer, then. Thanks for calling attention to that.
3a. You explicitly said it would be easy to document your objection in the post I replied to:
> But the conartist pretending to be Satoshi has been paying people to claim otherwise. It's easily falsified.
3b. Having a market where you can redeem a token for information/good you want is important to valuing money — and the whole principle of the former gold standard (and arguably what backs money now, in oil). BTC lacked such a good.
- - - - -
Your conclusion returns to the inappropriate tone, so I’m going to exit this discussion because your personal issues with the topic make it clear you’re not going to be able to engage with my perspective in good faith.
All of Satoshi's public posts are archived online (e.g. https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/ and usually available in the original location), I had no difficulty providing several examples where statements supporting your position would have been expected if they had any basis.
e.g. In the aforelinked Bitcointalk post (583.msg11405) Satoshi pointed out outright that a good which was purely limited supply and transferable over a communications channel without any other utility would expect to be valued for its utility for exchange.
> in changing a software in a way I think is dumb or leaves fewer features
But that isn't what you alleged, you alleged "the same people" change it to eliminate its source of intrinsic value and violate "Satoshi’s vision", resulting in "slowed adoption following that change". If that were true anyone who'd purchased Bitcoin on the basis of that intrinsic value offered by Satoshi would rightfully say they were harmed by it.
(Which is also why what you claim likely couldn't occur: Once Bitcoin was widely used why would people adopt a new version that reduced its capability?)
The comment about tortious acts isn't conjectural, two of the several lawsuits brought by the con artist Craig Wright alleges hundreds of billions of dollars in damages on the basis of objectively false claims about "removed opcodes" -- a false argument you appear to be advancing here.
> There’s no way I’ll be able to document to you something a decade ago, largely from in person discussions.
Can you clarify for me: You're now claiming that you personally were involved in Bitcoin a decade ago? And that you were having "in person" discussions with Satoshi?
In any case, I was there. I can't recall anything even close to what you're suggesting. If my memory was erroneous I see no reason why you couldn't easily point to them on Bitcointalk, the Bitcoin Wiki, Satoshi post archives, etc. I've been happy to cite my points to contemporary discussions, but I'm limited by the fact that your position demands that I prove a poorly specified negative.
> The removal of the math op codes was a poor choice of how to handle security — but drastically reduced the ability of the network.
Take it up with Satoshi. I don't agree that it actually had the drastic effect you imagine but if your post had said that Satoshi drastically reduced the functionality I probably wouldn't have replied at all, since while debatable it would have lacked the objectively false and accusatory components.
> From looking through the link, your solution appears to require external programs and systems besides BTC,
Obviously you need to have an implementation that actually lets you specify the program and what not, but that is fundamentally unavoidable. If there were a lot of interest support could be included with Bitcoin wallet software. No external system was used, and the software is only external because there hasn't been any cause to integrate it in an ordinary wallet -- it's a pretty specialized use!
> complete the whole exchange directly on chain in a single transaction
That isn't particularly interesting: With the approach you imagine any other participant on the network could see the solution, take it out of the transaction then stick it in their own transaction to claim the funds. With that reality there would be little to no incentive to actually solve the problem since it would just be stolen (as the theft would be automated just as people have done for transactions using insecure keys/nonces).
That approach would also be extraordinarily resource inefficient, since all nodes in the network now and forever in the future would need to directly process the entire problem (which is easily gigabytes in size for any SAT encoding of a problem interesting enough to pay someone else to solve). The approach described in the post eliminates both the theft problem and resource usage problem.
> You explicitly said it would be easy to document your objection in the post I replied to
I see how that may have been unclear.
It would be easy to falsify a positive claim. For example, you could specify your allegation: "The developers of Bitcoin Core disabled OP_BLAZ in 2016" and I would reply "There never was an OP_BLAZ [link to code as of Satoshi's last activity]" or "That was disabled, but it was disabled by Satoshi in 2010 [link to commit]", or "That's still there right now [link to code implementing it] or so on. Falsifying the less specific allegation of "stopped BTC from having smart contracts via a full featured VM, moving it away from Satoshi’s vision" requires proving a vague negative.
> Having a market where you can redeem a token for information/good you want is important to valuing money — and the whole principle of the former gold standard (and arguably what backs money now, in oil). BTC lacked such a good.
I'm not following you here: No special functionality is required to trade Bitcoin for goods or services-- you can just use it like any other money and of course people do exchange Bitcoin for goods and services constantly and at significant scale today. I agree that trade is quite important, and yet also quite irrelevant to the discussion.
The particular snazzy trick of trading bitcoin for machine verifiable facts with absolutely zero fraud risk is cypherpunk sexy but of little interest to most of the world, and as a result unlikely to constitute any substantial basis for Bitcoin's value-- yet it's also perfectly functional in Bitcoin today.
The alternative you imagine of sticking the whole statement to be satisfied in a transaction directly wouldn't be useful due to solution theft and wouldn't have been practically possible in the system as Satoshi created it because script's 10,000 bytes limit[1], and to whatever extent the opcodes were removed made script less useful those changes were made by Satoshi (as I showed), not anyone else. But it doesn't matter because there is a way to do it which doesn't run into those incentive compatibility problems and Satoshi implemented limitations ... for as much as anyone cares (turns out-- not much!).
[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/629e37dde1fa93f6ce31...
Probably the reason for leaving the conclusions to the reader is conspiratorial. Since one single wallet is responsible for most ordinals, some people might believe it is a government actor trying to stop Bitcoin from becoming useful as peer to peer cash. Of course this is ridiculous as in fact the original premise is wrong as memecoin and nft entertainment products represent a greater threat to state power than peer to peer cash - as they represent popular sovereign property that a lot of people want.