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Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by simonebrunozzi on Sunday May 28, 2023 @11:16AM (#36104732)
I'm a Venetian since 2020, and I can say that I know a bit about these engineering and environmental issues.

First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to corruption. Several people have been investigated, and some condemned, but it's pretty clear to everyone that as much as 2/3rd of the cost can be attributed in one way to another to corruption.

Second, no one in Venice is talking about raising the city by pumping something in its underground. No one.

This whole article is fabricated by finding a couple of obscure academics willing to imagine a weird, unlikely scenario.

There is no political will nor agreement on what to do to fight sea level rising. At least for the moment.

Despite all of this, I love being here, and I hope I'll be able to enjoy the city for the next few decades. Maybe some fancy and intelligent solution will show up eventually, down the road. I'm not too hopeful.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by zuprau on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:00PM (#36105216)
> no one in Venice is talking about raising the city

I see a lot of results: https://www.google.it/search?q=sollevare+venezia

People have been talking about this for decades, but it doesn't seem to be very popular now, especially since MOSE appears to be working at the moment.

There's even reportage by Le Iene https://www.iene.mediaset.it/2019/news/mose-alziamo-venezia-...

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by oh_sigh on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:26PM (#36105480)
Out of curiosity, why move to Venice? I guess 2020 would be a great time due to the dearth of tourists, but otherwise the city seems to be owned by tourists rather than the locals. Is there real hidden life going on there? How does one hook up with the local/long term residents?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by coldtea on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:46PM (#36105673)
Well, one could very well go there to be working with the tourists and short term residents...
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:48PM (#36105687)
I had the same question. I visited Venice years ago, and though I definitely think the place deserves to be on people's bucket list (it's beautiful, an engineering marvel, and I kept thinking to myself "How can this place still exist?"), but it still felt like "adult Disneyland" - more a museum almost than a place to live.

Genuinely curious about what life is like living there, and what the draw would be to move there.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by troad on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:08PM (#36105847)
There's many different kinds of experience to be had in Venice. If someone comes as part of a tour group, and their Italian is limited to 'grat-see', then yeah, they're 100% going to have a particular kind of experience (for which "adult Disneyland" is a great label). The stretch between the Rialto and Piazza San Marco, inclusive, is 100% for tourists. Some other stretches are heavily touristy too these days - the seaside walk between Piazza San Marco and Arsenale, the isles of Burano & Murano, etc. This is really no different from a place like Prague, where the historic heart is also 100% for tourists.

There's other places in Venice though - quieter parts, less touristy streets. You see fewer selfie sticks and more people with grocery bags, you see lawyers' offices and dentists, you see cafés selling coffees for more reasonable prices, etc. I would imagine that there would be beautiful charm to living off the beaten path in Venice, strolling along the canals every time you want to go for walk. If you're someone who greatly values beauty, paying Venice's cost of living premium in exchange for that privilege might feel like a good deal.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by LightBug1 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @02:09PM (#36106343)
100%. All it takes is the ability to use one's legs ...
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by rufasterisco on Sunday May 28, 2023 @03:26PM (#36106928)
In Venice, the small local population amidst a substantial influx of tourists fosters a tighter community.

Actually, lots of extremely local communities gather around social hubs, typically squares featuring bars where people routinely visit for breakfast, brunch, and aperitifs. It doesn't take long to gain recognition and differentiate yourself from a tourist; alcohol often facilitates conversation, too :).

If you want to see this in action, there are a fair number of sagre (these are summer festivals typical of small towns and villages throughout Italy, but not so much in the cities) that unfold right in the heart of Venice each year! (Try searching for Festa de san piero de casteo or Sagra di san giacomo dall'orio and look at some pictures)

Moreover, as Venice doesn't have cars (and boats just work in a different way), you're likely to follow the same few paths to and from work. This familiarity aids in establishing recognition on the street.

Being young can be beneficial when integrating with locals, thanks to the significant student population residing in the city (relative to the number of permanent residents). However, it's hardly an impediment; it's common to see people of all ages enjoying drinks during aperitivo. YMMV depending on your level of introversion or extroversion.

Nightlife after midnight is concentrated in a few places, and again it won't take long to recognize the same faces, nor to be recognized too.

Overall, as a single data-point, during my seven years there, I found Venice's social dynamics to touch a sweet spot in its unique blending of small-town camaraderie and large-scale artistic events.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by coldtea on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:44PM (#36105656)
>First, the €5.5B cost of the MOSE is mostly due to corruption. Several people have been investigated, and some condemned, but it's pretty clear to everyone that as much as 2/3rd of the cost can be attributed in one way to another to corruption.

Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on...

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:59PM (#36105772)
> Perhaps, but if we're being practical we should account for a similar increase in costs to any future solution. It's not like corruption will go away by the time the procurements for the next project go on...

This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever.

Raise costs on project A

Baseline the expected costs for project B based on project A

Raise costs further on project B

Repeat endlessly

It doesn’t have to be this way. Italy itself halved its rail construction costs by cracking down on corruption in the 90s. We always have a choice.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bobthepanda on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:27PM (#36105997)
Honestly, this is much cheaper than the US equivalent. Floodgates on New York Harbor have been costed at over $100B.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Monday May 29, 2023 @12:32AM (#36110662)
Yes, the procurement situation in the United States is at least an order of magnitude more dire than in Italy.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by coldtea on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:19PM (#36105927)
>This meek fetal-position defeatism is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever.

Really? I thought the reason was corruption! Perhaps if we all think positively it goes away!

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by FredPret on Sunday May 28, 2023 @02:21PM (#36106438)
Combine positive thinking with action, and yes, it will
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @03:20PM (#36106883)
No it won't. Corruption is one of the main reasons those project go anywhere. People in positions of power want to do them because they can get money on the side while they are done.

If we figured out how we can make combating climate change rife with corruption 30 years ago, we'd be in much better place right now.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by FredPret on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:11PM (#36107323)
OK, complain and do nothing and remain defeated.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:28PM (#36107463)
I don't complain. And as soon as someone figures out other thing than corruption profits that will motivate people in power to get things done I'll be fully onboard.

Elections kinda do that up to a point, called elections. Corruption is longer term mechanism.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by coldtea on Monday May 29, 2023 @04:04AM (#36111798)
How is doing something working out for you?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by FredPret on Monday May 29, 2023 @07:41AM (#36112992)
I'm happy and am making measurable progress in life.

How is complaining and pessimism working out for you?

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Monday May 29, 2023 @12:39AM (#36110704)
> Corruption is one of the main reasons those project go anywhere. People in positions of power want to do them because they can get money on the side while they are done.

This misunderstands the relationship between corruption and state capacity.

The key insight is that corruption does not require a project to actually deliver the promised benefits, or even to be completed at all.

> If we figured out how we can make combating climate change rife with corruption 30 years ago, we'd be in much better place right now.

Fortunately there’s a great test case for this theory: California High Speed Rail. It was justified in climate terms but actually got underway so that numerous local/regional special interests and parasitic consultants and contractors could extract profit from it. And the result is a fatally flawed project that is decades late, has swallowed money that could’ve paid for numerous other rail projects, may not be completed at all, and will never deliver the originally promised benefits in any case (too slow because of sweetheart deals for numerous Very Special cities).

Meanwhile, lower-corruption countries that haven’t gutted their state capacity can and do build immense amounts of beneficial infrastructure.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by coldtea on Monday May 29, 2023 @04:03AM (#36111795)
>The key insight is that corruption does not require a project to actually deliver the promised benefits, or even to be completed at all.

No, but another key insight is that it helps corruption very much if it's completed and delivers the promised benefits, since it means less chances for people to complain, and for later investigations (e.g. by political opponents) to deduce wrongdoing...

As for the California example, this is in a place with supposedly less or no corruption (and no "mafia ties" level corruption).

So, "Local/regional special interests and parasitic consultants and contractors" messing up the project is more about a huge bureaucracy and a too disjointed process, with baroque procurement laws, and decision makers who have to satisfy and yield to all kinds of interested parties along the way.

Plus of course the totally hand-tieing legal framework, and ligitation heavy environment leading to paralysis. Sure there would also be some corruption, but in the California case I'd venture to guess that you don't need much of it, and it's all both systemic and legal. It's just regular interested parties and middlemen getting their say and their legal share (but too many of them, and with high multipliers), and costly elaborate and unneeded procedures having to be followed.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Monday May 29, 2023 @10:08AM (#36114128)
> No, but another key insight is that it helps corruption very much if it's completed and delivers the promised benefits, since it means less chances for people to complain, and for later investigations (e.g. by political opponents) to deduce wrongdoing...

Again, a nice theory, but one that does not match reality. High-corruption projects rarely get done, or have serious flaws if they do. You can see this all over the world: from Russia’s Vostochny Cosmodrome (still not fully complete, money all embezzled) to Mexico City’s Metro Line 12 (inferior concrete saved Carlos Slim some money but killed 26 passengers). There is no accountability for the perpetrators of these failures precisely because of the corruption that enabled them in the first place, so they do not need to concern themselves with the benefits of the project. That’s why corruption fundamentally breaks the incentives for good governance. Meanwhile low-corruption countries build lots of great infrastructure.

> As for the California example, this is in a place with supposedly less or no corruption

Surely you can’t be serious

> So, "Local/regional special interests and parasitic consultants and contractors" messing up the project is more about a huge bureaucracy and a too disjointed process, with baroque procurement laws, and decision makers who have to satisfy and yield to all kinds of interested parties along the way.

What huge bureaucracy? The problem is that there is none, that all decision-making has either been passed up to politicians or down to consultants. CA HSR authority barely exists—all there is is a self-serving political board and a bunch of self-serving private consultants with virtually no one in the actual civil service technically competent to check their work. The politicians like Rod Diridon of San Jose use their positions to improperly benefit their cities (corruption) and the design-build consultants use their lack of oversight to improperly enrich themselves by making intentionally expensive design choices (also corruption).

The rest of what you said about the process is correct, and is another way to say “institutionalized and legalized corruption”.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Monday May 29, 2023 @05:15PM (#36118180)
> High-corruption projects rarely get done, or have serious flaws if they do.

Survivor bias. You only hear about corruption in failed projects. You don't hear all that much about corruption in successful projects because it couldn't have been that bad if the project went well and was a good idea. I can assure you that with every successful project many people got rich on the side too.

Getting rid of corruption is impossible. But it can be done in a better or worse way.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @01:07PM (#36127435)
The assertion that something is always there even when there’s absolutely no evidence for it is an unfalsifiable “Russell’s teapot” argument.

It is trivially true that someone makes money from every project; the land, labor, and materials have to come from somewhere. But it’s only corruption if someone is extracting surplus beyond the actual necessary cost.

Fortunately the Transit Costs Project has a great database of global costs for rail transit projects, making it possible to discern when something is fishy. I highly recommend reading at least their executive summary.

https://transitcosts.com/

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:54AM (#36255582)
> The assertion that something is always there even when there’s absolutely no evidence for it is an unfalsifiable “Russell’s teapot” argument.

Stating that every large project involves some degree of corruption is less like claiming that there's a teapot in the orbit of Jupiter we can't hope to observe. It's more like claiming that every sufficiently large economy has some gray area even if we didn't directly observed it.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Monday May 29, 2023 @06:58AM (#36112731)
> corruption does not require a project to actually deliver the promised benefits, or even to be completed at all.

Yes. Corruption only requires for the project to get started. Which is what very few useful projects experience at all. Most never get off the ground. And project getting started raises the probability that the project will be eventually finished at some point.

> And the result is a fatally flawed project that is decades late

But the alternative is not a project done right. It's a project than never got started because no one saw opportunity for personal gain in it. Think of all the places that don't have high speed rail projects, let alone high speed rail.

I know it's easy to lament inefficiencies of corruption and compare effects with other, more successful projects that possibly required less corruption to get going. But the fact is that inefficiencies are not a problem as long as there is money in the pockets. Every corporation operates with huge inefficiencies at every level except for perhaps core revenue centers. And it's fine. The problem is with starting things as an organization with money.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Monday May 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#36113971)
> But the alternative is not a project done right. It's a project than never got started because no one saw opportunity for personal gain in it. Think of all the places that don't have high speed rail projects, let alone high speed rail.

The alternative is absolutely a project done right—that’s why working high speed rail exists all over the world! The US is not the only place that exists.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by scotty79 on Monday May 29, 2023 @05:09PM (#36118132)
> that’s why working high speed rail exists all over the world!

I can assure you that they weren't built corruption free. The US might have worst corruption because it has the most money to bleed off on the side.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by bryananderson on Monday May 29, 2023 @12:30AM (#36110649)
> Really? I thought the reason was corruption! Perhaps if we all think positively it goes away!

I could have added a few words to my comment to make it clearer:

“This meek fetal-position defeatism in the face of corruption is why infrastructure costs spiral up and up and up forever.”

Corruption can be defeated, or at least minimized, but only if we fight it head-on rather than submissively accepting it and factoring it into our future expectations.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by jaclaz on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:05PM (#36105829)
Well the idea is not exactly new, this is a 2005 article:

https://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/11_Novembre/21...

Teatini and Gambolati are not "obscure academics", they are well known, see also this:

https://reservoir-prima.org/partners/view/2

but their theoretical models seem to have not been tested much in practice (AFAIK), BTW they even published a book in 2014 "Venice shall rise again":

https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780124201446/venice-shal...

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by seydor on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:30PM (#36106025)
if all fails, drain the city
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by albertopv on Sunday May 28, 2023 @03:36PM (#36107020)
Italian here, I live 40km far from Venice, I confirm no one is really talking about raising the city.