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Re:Why I Left Rust by paddw on Sunday May 28, 2023 @09:01AM (#36103631)
This whole exchange feels off. Essentially, the underlying spat is over a strong technical disagreement, but it is being prosecuted in this weirdly stylized language of emotion and abuse. I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.
Re:Why I Left Rust by rtpg on Sunday May 28, 2023 @09:13AM (#36103702)
The problem is that the strong technical disagreement was not brought up the many times it could have! Instead the stick was stuck in the bike wheels way after the bike was moving forward at a decent speed.

Though “downgrading keynote to talk” is obviously not the same as an outright disinvite, the fact that the original invitee asked explicitly about this content being pre-RFC (giving rust leadership the out to resolve this amicably!), just makes it hard for me to say “oh this makes sense”.

Perhaps this is inevitable in some sense if the critique is not brought up earlier. But it’s something that feels really unavoidable if people were more honest about their own feelings on other peoples work.

Re:Why I Left Rust by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:15PM (#36105362)
> that the strong technical disagreement was not brought up the many times it could have!

Consensus attained by a shouting match?

Re:Why I Left Rust by atoav on Monday May 29, 2023 @03:23AM (#36111572)
What I don't get here is the following. No matter how egalitarian you organize such a conference, doesn't it make sense that the organizers get the last say in what the keynote looks like? They have an rough overview over all contributions and they can decide if what you contribute is best suited to be a keynote.

Of course that gives them a certain level of power of the discourse, but what is the alternative? Community-voted conference structures that fail to take many variables into account that you need to take into account for an enjoyable conference?

If I were invited as a keynote speaker and the conference organizers tell me that the stuff I produced is good, but not suitable for the keynote I wouldn't blame them, but myself. The only instance I could imagine was if they invited me specifically for a spicy topic and my talk was too spicy for them. But a tech talk? Come on.

Re:Why I Left Rust by rtpg on Monday May 29, 2023 @05:15AM (#36112175)
In this specific instance, there was a vote to have this keynote. Then somebody seems to have circumvented this process to get the keynote downgraded (leading to the OP resigning, as they had been behind the initial vote!)

There was somebody who circumvented the intended governance structures to make this happen, and this is probably where the frustration and this blog post come from.

Re:Why I Left Rust by atoav on Tuesday May 30, 2023 @04:20AM (#36122393)
Okay that is a tad bit more problematic, but I still think it is not that dramatic of a thing, especially without hearing the reasoning of the organizers.

They could (or should) have been more transparent with communicating their reasoning, but again: Anyone who has ever organized any decently sized event knows that in the end the buck will stop with whoever has to do the actual work. And if you ask me (you probably didn't), giving organizers that power and trust is generally reasonable. They have the best insight, they have to carry the consequences if it does not work out, etc.

Of course that trust can be lost and a community can decide to let other people organize their event next time. But the way I see it those made responsible for an event should be able to shape that event.

Re:Why I Left Rust by CRConrad on Friday June 09, 2023 @08:51AM (#36257108)
> but I still think it is not that dramatic of a thing, especially without hearing the reasoning of the organizers.

You still seem to be missing the point: Which “organizers”? The ostensible “Leadership” of the project – which one would think should be the final arbiters of any such organizing – did want the guy to do the keynote. The real issue here is that the stewardship of the whole project, to put it in sophisticated technical terms, sucks if some grey eminence can undermine the official leadership just like that. Then their whole code-of-conduct, leadership-by-committee, woke-and-adapted-for-Modern-Audiences governance foofarah is just flim-flam, a sham, a lie.

That's the real issue here.

Re:Why I Left Rust by quotemstr on Sunday May 28, 2023 @09:38AM (#36103890)
We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.
Re:Why I Left Rust by monkeywork on Sunday May 28, 2023 @09:46AM (#36103958)
curious - what tools were deprived to a whole generation?
Re:Why I Left Rust by jitl on Sunday May 28, 2023 @10:23AM (#36104239)
Shouting in the workplace and three martini lunches?
Re:Why I Left Rust by ethbr0 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @11:57AM (#36105190)
You're joking, but you're not wrong.

The lack of emotional (and explicitly confrontational) experiences in modern society are underdeveloping skills to deal with them.

Consequently, you get childish spats over what should be a technical disagreement, because people aren't comfortable saying "I think you're wrong, but I respect your opinion. Here are the reasons I think you're wrong..."

As the quip goes, anonymity and the lack of physical presence turns everyone into an asshole on the internet -- and then we raised most of the world on the internet.

Re:Why I Left Rust by Glawen on Sunday May 28, 2023 @02:46PM (#36106649)
It's true that people are less and less ok being confrontational. I don't mind having a spat, but it is becoming increasingly rarer
Re:Why I Left Rust by notmypenguin on Monday May 29, 2023 @06:09AM (#36112450)
Critical thinking skills independently from the subjects they may arise from. It’s not a trendy topic of argument, but I will also propose that modern English speakers have no notion of their own language without a prerequisite in Latin, or you get folks like the person trying to tell me my subscription date started at some arbitrary date unrelated to the specific date I signed under.
Re:Why I Left Rust by TRiG_Ireland on Monday May 29, 2023 @08:57AM (#36113489)
> I will also propose that modern English speakers have no notion of their own language without a prerequisite in Latin.

1. English is a Germanic language, not a Romance one.

2. Even for speakers of Romance languages, knowledge of the ancestor language doesn't really make a difference. Does it help a modern English speaker to know that silly once meant "blessed by God"?

3. The notion that Latin is somehow more logical than English is a pervasive one, but it has absolutely no evidentiary underpinning. It's pure classist bullshit.

Re:Why I Left Rust by spaetzleesser on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:42PM (#36105627)
The previous generations didn’t exactly set a good example for healthy, impersonal and professional argument.
Re:Why I Left Rust by CRConrad on Friday June 09, 2023 @08:55AM (#36257158)
But still, they did create (and sometimes even use) tools that at least make it possible – tools which far too many members of the youngest generations, and their organisations, seem to have abandoned or never even knew they existed in the first place.
Re:Why I Left Rust by busterarm on Sunday May 28, 2023 @02:11PM (#36106362)
Skins are luxuriously thin these days, yeah.
Re:Why I Left Rust by sangnoir on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:27PM (#36107448)
Yeah, you can't even refer to someone by a slur an not have them make it a big deal. People are just too sensitive, it's just words. /s

The irony is not lost to me that the "it's just words" crowd is also sensitive to "just words".

Re:Why I Left Rust by busterarm on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:40PM (#36107569)
That's not even the context we're talking about here. We're talking about professional argument. Disagreement over decisions. Hurling slurs at people isn't even in the orbit of that.

I'm talking about people being thin-skinned, petty and passive-aggressive about other people disagreeing with their ideas, which is something I see _constantly_ in this field.

Re:Why I Left Rust by busterarm on Sunday May 28, 2023 @02:32PM (#36106541)
Previous recent generations also had most nations sending large groups of their men off to kill other nations' men for insufficient reasons.

As a result of the current geopolitics, we don't have the self-awareness to realize that minor conflicts are minor conflicts and that the absolute best place to be and thing to be doing is spending time at home with your loved ones.

We certainly shouldn't be carrying out PR strategy wars against our colleagues like is happening here...

Re:Why I Left Rust by notmypenguin on Monday May 29, 2023 @06:11AM (#36112459)
War and nationalism haven’t ceased, nor have the emotional levers you speak of gone away, what has happened is that folks are comfortable behaving differently online than they would face to face
Re:Why I Left Rust by lawn on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:21PM (#36105424)
> I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.

Do the Rust community really feel this is acceptable?

Everyone seems to hate it, so I can see that it's possible it's "just" bad leadership (which is a big deal of course).