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Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @08:39AM (#36043406)
I have a drum computer [0] that has a "humanize" knob; the manual says the following:

    HUMANIZE: MIDI effect - adjust the amount of randomness and probability, changing the velocity of the steps
    in the pattern and slightly moving the recorded steps further from their relative position.
   Each time a pattern is repeated, the humanize will change its internal values.
In theory it'll make the drum computer sound more human / imperfect. However, professional drummers can play super tight (as shown in the article, .15 second precision strikes, and Hammett isn't even the best out there) and in some cases will have their strikes triggered, normalized and / or cleaned up for the album, so humanizing a drum beat is more for live performances I think?

[0] https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/unodrum/

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by BurningFrog on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:17AM (#36043830)
Rick Beato says the typical 90s band would replace their drummer with a studio pro or drum machine for their first album, since they just weren't precise enough.

I didn't get the impression that "humanizing" was much of a concern.

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by Jolter on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:01AM (#36043622)
Lars Ulrich, the drummer of Metallica, is widely considered to a mediocre drummer, in terms of technique. His style is distinctive but cannot be called precise. The timing on Master of Puppets is likely due to a fluke during the songwriting/rehearsal process. “Hey guys, this 5/8 thing sounds really cool, I think we’re really nailing it now!”

plays it out of time

Rest of the band likely just got used to his idiosyncratic playing and adapted.

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by brookst on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:04AM (#36043665)
…and he did that, consistently, with only a few millisecond variations, on exactly the same beat of the same riff, for the entirety of just that one song, and in live performances?
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by IsTom on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:19AM (#36043852)
Drumming and generally keeping rhythm is a physical thing. You move your body parts (e.g. bopping head, swaying hips etc.) and it couples with how and when you're playing.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by brookst on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:57AM (#36044377)
Are you suggesting his movements in this one measure were so unique that they exactly doubled the length of one eighth note?

At some point I think we have to put the “it was a freak accident that was repeated with precision over and over, forever” argument to bed.

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by IsTom on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @11:10AM (#36045412)
With n=1, for me there is a groove or three that are just muscle memory and I'd need a longer while to sit down and think if asked write them down. They came out from noodling around and coming to "huh, that sounds cool" and I imagine that's not something particularly uncommon for other people too.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by brookst on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @11:25AM (#36045668)
I think we lost the thread here. I wasn't suggesting Lars had millisecond-level intrinsic timing and an innovative approach to music theory. I was rejecting the idea that this beat came from incompetence. I think developing an interesting groove and being able to play it consistently in a song, and in live performances for years is evidence of drumming competence.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by Jolter on Monday May 29, 2023 @08:02AM (#36113108)
You don’t play music, do you? It’s absolutely possible to learn a rhythm, groove or melody wrong, and to rehearse it until it sounds so right, the anything else sounds wrong to you. But your audience would notice.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by colanderman on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:56AM (#36044350)
As a musician, I do not find this surprising at all. It's easy to internalize "incorrect" rhythms and pitches.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by LeonB on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:26AM (#36044811)
"practice makes permanent"
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by toolslive on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @02:40AM (#36054842)
That's why you want to practice _slooowly_ but perfectly before you speed up. That way mistakes can't take root.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by PeterisP on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:18AM (#36044695)
Did he do that consistently or is it just an artifact seen in a single very heavily edited record? Is the same timing seen in this section of live concert recordings during those years?
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by Jolter on Monday May 29, 2023 @06:26AM (#36112531)
I have not been a metal head for many years but my recollection is that the live albums and bootlegs have timing that varies all over the place. Especially on MoP and Battery, and a few other notable ones (The Four Horsemen) which have complicated rhythms.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by plorkyeran on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:54PM (#36047083)
Yes, that's how playing music works. Whatever you do on your first playthrough is what you'll do on every playthrough if you don't specifically try to change it. Consistently reproducing a mistake is generally much easier than unlearning the mistake.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by mort96 on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:34AM (#36044902)
I really wouldn't be surprised if "5/8" wasn't even mentioned anywhere until long after that part of the song was thought up. It just sounds good.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by spoonfeeder006 on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:15PM (#36053283)
Integer subdivisions are kinda arbitrary too as well

Probably we limit ourselves a lot if we're too confined to those without being able to express our energy

But someone who is trained explicitly to play exact integer divisions will have trouble expressing their energy as much

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by matsemann on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @08:58AM (#36043582)
Yeah, but it's more than just adding some "random" timings. Because I think that for a real drummer, the timings are biased. For instance, after hitting a drum far away, the timing/speed/power at which you hit the next drum is different than if you hit a different drum right before.
Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by PeterisP on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:16AM (#36044666)
It's not (solely) random imperfections - a good drum groove will have intentional specific deviations from the "theoretically exact" (bad) beat timing, no matter if done by a human or a properly engineered digital track.

There is a difference between the crude musical notation and how it's actually meant to be played - a notation showing 4 quarter notes in a 4/4 beat does not imply that the correct way to play them is to literally have 4 identical notes with idential gaps; even without any explicit extra notation (which indicates significant changes) there is an implied understanding that there should be a variation in velocity (and, for a skilled practicioner, not a random one, but placing slight emphasis as required) and a variation in timing (again, for a skilled player not random but e.g. depending on the music genre a slight shuffle or an intentional shift of one beat); this variation is not a flaw of imperfect execution, but required to properly play the music as intended.

Re:Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” by spoonfeeder006 on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @10:25PM (#36053345)
.15 second precision sounds like a huge margin of error for a pro drummer, or any pro musician for that matter