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Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by cs702 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @09:18AM (#35987448)
I cannot get over the fact that the US is acting like a "less developed" country.

It's both shocking and unbelievable, and also... entirely predictable.

Shame on all ideologues in congress incapable of compromise.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by rsynnott on Thursday May 18, 2023 @09:37AM (#35987704)
The original sin was introducing this debt ceiling concept in the first place. Once it existed, it was _inevitably_ going to be used like this.

(A few other countries have some sort of debt limit, but they're generally expressed in terms of fraction of GDP, which is _somewhat_ less problematic, though may have undesirable effects in a financial crisis... Doing it in absolute terms is _obviously_ going to lead to problems, though.)

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by wpietri on Thursday May 18, 2023 @09:49AM (#35987880)
Yeah, the place to solve this is within Congress. If they want to keep the debt limited, they can control that by passing budgets that fit. If they want a rule to manage that, they can make one.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by 0zemp2c on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:03AM (#35988077)
when was the budget that relast time Congress passed was fiscally sound? 1980?
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by wpietri on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:21AM (#35988344)
Do you mean balanced? The last time the US budget was in surplus was 2001.

But debt can be fiscally sound, as anybody with a mortgage knows.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by flockonus on Thursday May 18, 2023 @01:45PM (#35991542)
A healthy mortgage (like any healthy debt) has the expectation of timely repayments and reduces over time. What we see here is the exact opposite to the point debtors are worried about interest default.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by acdha on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:15AM (#35988238)
Turn of the century. The Democrats left a balanced budget for George W. Bush but the Republicans decided that meant tax cuts were needed so they could continue campaigning against “big government spending”.

https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-und...

The most significant long-term problems they created were probably exempting rich people from Social Security taxes on more than their first $125k of income and Medicare plan D, both of which created massive time bombs as the boomers headed towards retirement. The longer we delay dealing with those, the harder it’ll be to close the gap — which is exactly what they were counting on to build support for privatization.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by pjc50 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:12AM (#35988203)
Doesn't matter. The problem is that passing the budget does not automatically authorize the debt to pay for it. All that needs to happen is welding those two together.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:25AM (#35988392)
> original sin was introducing this debt ceiling concept in the first place

It was for efficiency:

"Between 1788 and 1917, Congress would authorize each bond issue by the United States Treasury by passing a legislative act that approved the issue and the amount.

In 1917, during World War I, Congress created the debt ceiling with the Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917, which allowed the Treasury to issue bonds and take on other debt without specific Congressional approval, as long as the total debt fell under the statutory debt ceiling" [1].

There is no original sin. We just need a law that permanently authorizes the Treasury to borrow as needed to pay for the things the Congress told it to spend on.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_d...

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by makomk on Thursday May 18, 2023 @11:32AM (#35989450)
Having such a permanent law would be constitutionally iffy. The power to borrow money that is part of the US national debt is specifically reserved for Congress, and this is essentially part of what makes the United States a democracy in the first place: only the body made up of the country's elected representatives can tax and borrow in the name of the country. (Other countries have similar restrictions, though not necessarily debt caps; for example, in the UK Parliament must passs a budget each year or the government effectively cannot finance itself and continue operating. This would probably not work well in the USA because Congress has trouble passing budgets reliably.)
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 18, 2023 @03:13PM (#35992686)
You’d include it the language in the budget. When the Congress actually has a choice as to whether or not to spend the money. Doing it after a contract has been issued and the bill is due is asinine.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by snarf21 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @09:55AM (#35987972)
We are less developed because no other country in the world has this debt ceiling structure (Denmark's is way different and no other country even has one). It is sad that it is used to simply as a tool to cut programs for poor people to give rich people tax breaks.

Biden should just print a $999T coin and make it a non-issue forever. They seem to be favoring the 14th amendment approach but that seems dubious given the current Supreme Court.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by sidewndr46 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:03AM (#35988083)
I don't actually care what the Supreme Court decides, but I really want the "14th amendment" approach to be argued in court.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by njarboe on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:13AM (#35988216)
If the section of the 14th amendment regarding debts means that all US debt must be paid, I would interpret that to mean," If the debt ceiling holds interest on the debt will be paid and spending must be cut so that no more debt is incurred." Fortunately at the moment yearly debt payments are less than total US gov. income but the cuts would be drastic.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by sidewndr46 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:53AM (#35988823)
Isn't the 'income' part only a minor detail. Even if there was a shortfall from tax revenue, the US has a huge amount of property it could sell off to pay it's debts. Just the National Parks alone would generate enough revenue for many years of interest payments.
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by mindslight on Thursday May 18, 2023 @11:23AM (#35989282)
"The solution came during the budget crisis of 2330, when the Brawndo corporation simply bought the Food and Drug Administration and the Federal Communications Commission, enabling them to say, do, and sell anything they wanted"

Rather than selling off real assets, the answer is for the executive to create new money themselves ("mint the coin") rather than continuing to be beholden to the Federal Reserve. As we saw with this last spate of pandemic price inflation, the Federal Reserve's technocratic mandate means they will have to adjust and take money out of circulation to compensate.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by sidewndr46 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @01:23PM (#35991242)
so if I'm thinking about this correctly

1. Executive branch mints coins

2. Coins are deposited

3. Functionally this raises the debt ceiling, albeit in a roundabout manner

4. Fed. Reserve tightens monetary policy to compensate for increased circulation of USD

5. Banks are less able to lend cash on a credit basis to private enterprise, since all banks are dependent on Fed. Reserve for cash to back such lending

If it continues long enough wouldn't this eventually mean that the only entity with any credit would be the Federal Government? I'd suspect a weird commercial futures swap market would pop up in lieu of traditional credit lines.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by mindslight on Thursday May 18, 2023 @01:39PM (#35991462)
* * *
Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by sidewndr46 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @01:56PM (#35991677)
My understanding is that money in the economy does not imply the existence of credit, only that money may be exchanged for goods and services.

I'm assuming this is a continuous loop. So over time wouldn't interest rates tend to infinity? Or maybe not, because raising interest rates at some point would be of no utility. If no one is using credit, raising rates doesn't actually change anything.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by mindslight on Thursday May 18, 2023 @02:23PM (#35992040)
Securitization and surveillance compel repayment and thus allow for the existence of credit.

Interest rates and the ability to issue credit are mostly orthogonal concepts (interest rates do affect the real and perceived abilities of a debtor to pay back a loan, which does affect creditworthiness).

The sheer majority of "money" in our economy is actually credit/debt. Your bank account balance doesn't indicate a physical pile of money somewhere, rather it's debt the bank owes you. They in turn do things like buy US treasuries which are debt the government owes them, or loan it out as credit card balances which are debt that other consumers owe them. A dollar in your bank account contributes to your own sense of purchasing power AND (for example) the credit card user's purchasing power. Increasing interest rates makes debt less desirable to have, thus decreasing the money supply.

I don't know what you're saying about rates tending towards infinity?

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by ejb999 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:05AM (#35988112)
>>Biden should just print a $999T coin and make it a non-issue forever.

Get ready for your $250 cup of coffee, and 20%+ interest rates forever if they do that.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by mindslight on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:50AM (#35988791)
Monetary inflation, consumer price inflation, and asset inflation are each distinct measures.

Monetary inflation that is not spent into the economy will not result in price inflation, or asset inflation for that matter. If the coins are held by the Executive or used to pay off debt held by the Federal Reserve, the new money won't enter the economy. Where things would get "interesting" is if the coins were used to pay off privately held debt (then that money would have to find somewhere else to be parked), but that would directly affect asset prices rather than consumer prices.

I for one think it would be great if the Executive/Legislature took back some monetary creation responsibilities from the Federal Reserve. We've had massive monetary expansion over the past few decades, but due to the way the Federal Reserve creates new money, it has chiefly resulted in asset inflation (hence "line always goes up") while actually squeezing the productive economy.

The real hazard of minting too much new money that sits around is that when a spendthrift Republican gains power, they might spend it all to recreate this "debt ceiling brinkmanship" dynamic for their kayfabe of fiscal responsibility - in a way that the effects don't show up until a Democrat is in office of course.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by snarf21 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @02:24PM (#35992055)
How would it do that? It is just a coin held at the Federal Reserve to make the debt not go over the "limit". It is just a magic trick on the ledger. It doesn't change the amount of money in circulation as the coin is never spent.

I don't understand how it would change anything about prices. The Federal Reserve already sets the interest rates indpendent of the deficit. Congress already has the ability to adjust the budget and pass laws to change spending, or increase/reduce taxes. The CBO already gives Congress estimates for every law and it's effect on the deficit.

Re:USDC's Circle Moves $8.7B to Repo Agreements to Protect R... by mrguyorama on Thursday May 18, 2023 @12:21PM (#35990275)
We should not encourage compromise with an entire party that is openly threatening the country's economy for dubious merit, on a subject that they never seem to care about when the head honcho has an R next to their name.