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Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by chongli on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:11PM (#35979830)
Yeah. Walking into Congress and agreeing with every barb thrown his way is a red flag to me. OpenAI has made AI fear mongering a central plank in their marketing platform. I think their goal is to convince the government to build a regulatory moat around their business.

Why? Because they see the writing on the wall. There’s no network effect here. Anyone can build AI. There are thousands of students going into grad school to study this stuff. The market is going to be flooded.

All of their head start will evaporate unless they can build a moat around it to keep new entrants out. What better way to do that than to have your rockstar pitch man walk into Congress and have them eating out of his hand? They practically begged him to head up a new regulatory agency!

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by _just7_ on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:19PM (#35979934)
I mostly agree that there is probably some self-interest at play when they ask for regulation. Though the fact that one of the existing firms in the industry wants regulation doesn't invalidate all the legitimate reason for regulation. For example, existing car manufacturers might benefit significantly from all the safety requirements for cars as they create a barrier to entry for new players, but I doubt that many people want to abolish all the testing and certification cars have to go through.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by paulpan on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#35980052)
Arguably OpenAI's moat is the heavily subsidized Microsoft Azure infrastructure to train its models and serve traffic, but your point still stands: government regulation will be a more reliable moat. Especially as the latest LLM models (e.g. LLaMA) are shrinking in size while maintaining performance parity.

I wonder if government will end up enacting any legislation or this scrutiny will blow over until something egregious happens (e.g. Cambridge Analytica). They've shown zero willingness to legislate any consumer data privacy laws so far.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by bostonsre on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:14PM (#35979867)
Isn't it also possible that Sam is being genuine about his concerns and his statements because he wants what is best for humanity?
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by rjbwork on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:21PM (#35979960)
It may be so, but given the switcheroo that happened with "Open" AI, he and the entire company is untrustworthy on this particular front.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by chpatrick on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:04PM (#35980529)
When OpenAI started I don't think anyone would have thought that AI this powerful was around the corner.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by edgyquant on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:14PM (#35980670)
This is just more openAI marketing at work. ChatGPT is a chatbot, and it’s good at language for sure, but it isn’t some huge breakthrough that people were expecting would take a century. Its literally just a fancy RNN which we’ve had for awhile
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by og_kalu on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:27PM (#35980840)
No offense but this comment just shows a lack of understanding of the development that's happened with transformers.

"Fancy RNN" is a pretty ridiculous assertion.

And no, researchers didn't expect what GPT-3/4 has been shown to do to be around the corner at all.

GPT's aren't chatbots. That's just a neat natural consequence that's happened. They're machines that reason, understand and follow instructions in plain language. And their abilities go far beyond what any expected language modelling to provide.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by edgyquant on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:06PM (#35981272)
Nah not really, there’s just a lot of hyperbole going around right now. They are RNNs, the difference is they have a layer/layers being fed back instead of a single neuron. That’s a fancy recurrent network.

They are not machines that reason, they are approximators. It’s all just token matching based on data we’ve fed it. Further it didn’t happen over night but through successive improvements and at no point was the next improvement considered some infeasible thing.

Seems to me maybe you’ve bought into the hype here, and are confusing that with reality.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by og_kalu on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:13PM (#35981342)
>They are not machines that reason, they are approximators.

And meaningless distinction of the year award goes to..

"It's not real [insert property]" is not an intelligent argument. By all means, divine the way to distinguish results of the two. After all, what kind of important distinction can't be distinguished by results?

>Further it didn’t happen over night but through successive improvements

The only difference between GPT-3 and GPT-2 was scale. They didn't even change the tokenizer until 4. There were no "successful improvements" to smoothen the massive gap in capabilities between the two. So to say that was expected just shows more lack of knowledge here.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by airgapstopgap on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:00PM (#35981806)
> The only difference between GPT-3 and GPT-2 was scale. They didn't even change the tokenizer until 4. There were no "successful improvements" to smoothen the massive gap in capabilities between the two.

"Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

GPT-2 is two orders of magnitude smaller. In terms of forebrain neuron count this is the difference between a human and an elephant shrew or budgerigar. It was absolutely expected by reasonable people that 2 OOMs of scaling will provide a qualitative jump.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by og_kalu on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:13PM (#35981923)
>GPT-2 is two orders of magnitude smaller. In terms of forebrain neuron count this is the difference between a human and an elephant shrew or budgerigar. It was absolutely expected by reasonable people that 2 OOMs of scaling will provide a qualitative jump.

When GPT-3 was released, it was by far the largest artificial neural network ever trained. And I mean by far. Now there wasn't any big jump in hardware capabilities to spur this sort of gulf. It wasn't a case of "Oh now we can train a very large model"

So Want to know why there was such a gap ? It's because most researchers assumed the models would overfit the data or display diminishing returns long before 175b.

Brain neurons are not comparable to ann parameters.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by Reki on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:30PM (#35982048)
You would expect a machine that can reason to improve in its responses as a conversation progresses, instead of hallucinating.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by chpatrick on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:02PM (#35981822)
> They are not machines that reason, they are approximators.

They approximate a function that performs reasoning...

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by airgapstopgap on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:48PM (#35981682)
Researchers aren't a monolith. Just because Gary Marcus (a complete fraud by the way, look up his "XProp" magitech he sold to Uber) pooh-poohed connectionist AI until ChatGPT came out doesn't mean nobody predicted gains from scaling; certainly many people deep in the know expected things to click. Certainly they expected that the basic trick of associative learning will be cracked. E.g. here's Shane Legg, December 2009 [1]:

> Conclusion: computer power is unlikely to be the issue anymore in terms of AGI being possible. The main question is whether we can find the right algorithms.

> One of the big things influencing me this year has been learning about how much we understand about how the brain works, in particular, how much we know that should be of interest to AGI designers. I won’t get into it all here, but suffice to say that just a brief outline of all this information would be a 20 page journal paper (there is currently a suggestion that I write such a paper next year with some Gatsby Unit neuroscientists, but for the time being I’ve got too many other things to attend to). At a high level what we are seeing in the brain is a fairly sensible looking AGI design. You’ve got hierarchical temporal abstraction formed for perception and action combined with more precise timing motor control, with an underlying system for reinforcement learning. The reinforcement learning system is essentially a type of temporal difference learning though unfortunately at the moment there is evidence in favour of actor-critic, Q-learning and also Sarsa type mechanisms — this picture should clear up in the next year or so. The system contains a long list of features that you might expect to see in a sophisticated reinforcement learner such as pseudo rewards for informative queues, inverse reward computations, uncertainty and environmental change modelling, dual model based and model free modes of operation, things to monitor context, it even seems to have mechanisms that reward the development of conceptual knowledge. When I ask leading experts in the field whether we will understand reinforcement learning in the human brain within ten years, the answer I get back is “yes, in fact we already have a pretty good idea how it works and our knowledge is developing rapidly.”

> I suspect that for the next 5 years, and probably longer, neuroscientists working on understanding cortex aren’t going to be of much use to AGI efforts. My guess is that sometime in the next 10 years developments in deep belief networks, temporal graphical models, liquid computation models, slow feature analysis etc. will produce sufficiently powerful hierarchical temporal generative models to essentially fill the role of cortex within an AGI.

> Right, so my prediction for the last 10 years has been for roughly human level AGI in the year 2025 (though I also predict that sceptics will deny that it’s happened when it does!) This year I’ve tried to come up with something a bit more precise. In doing so what I’ve found is that while my mode is about 2025, my expected value is actually a bit higher at 2028. This is not because I’ve become more pessimistic during the year, rather it’s because this time I’ve tried to quantify my beliefs more systematically and found that the probability I assign between 2030 and 2040 drags the expectation up. Perhaps more useful is my 90% credibility region, which from my current belief distribution comes out at 2018 to 2036.

And here's Rich Sutton's famous Bitter Lesson, a month after GPT-2 [2]:

> We have to learn the bitter lesson that building in how we think we think does not work in the long run. The bitter lesson is based on the historical observations that 1) AI researchers have often tried to build knowledge into their agents, 2) this always helps in the short term, and is personally satisfying to the researcher, but 3) in the long run it plateaus and even inhibits further progress, and 4) breakthrough progress eventually arrives by an opposing approach based on scaling computation by search and learning. The eventual success is tinged with bitterness, and often incompletely digested, because it is success over a favored, human-centric approach.

> One thing that should be learned from the bitter lesson is the great power of general purpose methods, of methods that continue to scale with increased computation even as the available computation becomes very great. The two methods that seem to scale arbitrarily in this way are search and learning.

Surprise indicates the mismatch of your mental model and reality, not the inherent weirdness of the latter. Both the surprised/alarmed people and people still in denial about the power of LLMs have to revisit their assumptions and ask if they were founded on any credible understanding to begin with.

1. http://www.vetta.org/2009/12/tick-tock-tick-tock-bing/

2. http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by og_kalu on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:02PM (#35981825)
Sure researchers aren't a monolith. Not sure why you brought up Gary Marcus though. Anyway, there's lots more quotes to indicate surprise than the opposite.

When GPT-3 was released, it was by far by the largest artificial neural network ever trained and not because of any big jump in hardware technology. That's not the usual state of affairs for technology everyone or even most expect to pan out the way it did.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by ENGNR on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:47PM (#35982199)
There’s an interview between Musk and Tucker Carlson where he says he knew Google had these powerful models internally and thought they should be out in the open, so the answer was a non-profit called Open AI, it was the whole premise of the org

I believe he disagreed with the direction the board was taking it and tried to take over, which when failed he stopped funding it, and they went to investors

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by somesortofthing on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:33PM (#35980110)
Maybe he sincerely believes the line OpenAI's PR department is pushing, but that's an even better reason not to listen to him.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by mxkopy on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:27PM (#35980037)
No. In situations like this the best you can hope for is that his incentives aren't at odds with the rest of humanity.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by bostonsre on Thursday May 18, 2023 @09:39AM (#35987735)
Wouldn't it be an almost comical level of supervilliany for him to believe that agi is coming and to only care about his company profitting? It seems pretty plausible that agi terrifies him, that he knows it can be done by a lot of different players, and that he wants it to happen as gracefully as possible. If I put myself in his shoes, I would be terrified and asking for some guardrails too. He seems musk like where he has enough money to not care about making more money.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by mxkopy on Thursday May 18, 2023 @10:51AM (#35988797)
If you do work in AI you're not worried about AGI, period. It's fine that the average layman feels like they're in Terminator but anyone who's written and trained models knows that it's just silly. We shouldn't really expect Sam Altman to do any better than perpetuating fear and hype because of the amount of money on the line.

It's nice to think that you can have so much money you stop caring about it but it doesn't really make sense. You don't get to personally keep billions of dollars without caring about money.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by bostonsre on Thursday May 18, 2023 @05:29PM (#35994319)
I've seen a lot of people that work in AI express concerns about the impact on society as we progress towards AGI. We don't need to reach AGI for there to be a huge impact on society whether its negative or positive. OpenAI's tool is already having an impact on jobs, it seems straight forward to extrapolate that there will be larger impacts on society as models improve. I would still assert that it would be a comical level of supervillainy for Sam to only care about his companies profits over any potential negative impacts on society. It seems highly plausible that he could not be a sociopath and have empathy and actually cares about limiting negative impacts of these tools.

> It's nice to think that you can have so much money you stop caring about it but it doesn't really make sense. You don't get to personally keep billions of dollars without caring about money.

It is definitely not every billionaire that thinks like this but there are some that seem to not care too much about material possessions like Musk or Sam. Their endeavors seem to be the things that they care about the most and they don't seem to be doing it to attain the most amount of money possible.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by malermeister on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:21PM (#35979955)
Possible, yes. But coming from the guy that wants to scan everyone's irises, unlikely.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by igxitxiyxiyc on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:20PM (#35979941)
possible, absolutely. just like it's possible every asshole who did it before him was due to a genuine desire for the good of humanity.

aw heck, let's go so far as to say anyone willing to testify if front of congress primarily does so because they want to protect the best interests of others.

Would be a fucking swell world to live in.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by bostonsre on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:25PM (#35980019)
> just like it's possible every asshole who did it before him was due to a genuine desire for the good of humanity.

So.. you're saying that every person that testifies before congress has bad intentions just because they testify before congress?

Say he did want what was best for humanity, how should he have acted differently in front of congress?

To me, from every interview I've heard from him, he doesn't seem like a Zuckerberg.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by igxitxiyxiyc on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:59PM (#35980467)
My point is that there is no room for granting leeway on either side. "But what if they really want to help the world" is the cry of founders who haven't been shown to be assholes yet.

Don't assume they're they're to help. Don't assume they're there to hurt.

They are there to cover their own asses and nothing more.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by bostonsre on Thursday May 18, 2023 @05:32PM (#35994359)
> Don't assume they're they're to help. Don't assume they're there to hurt.

Why is the assumption that they are only there to cover their own asses ok to make but other assumptions are not?

We don't know what he is actually thinking. It is entirely plausible that he is not a sociopath and actually wants to minimize negative impacts on society through regulation because he thinks that is the best path forward.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by JohnFen on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:06PM (#35980555)
It's certainly possible. I can't read minds. But his statements on these issues sound more to me like "Yes, this is really dangerous stuff and we're taking a huge risk in developing it, but too bad! You can't stop us."
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by NumberWangMan on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:31PM (#35980879)
His point of view, that he's stated on the Lex Friedman podcast, is that AGI is potentially dangerous and inevitable, but safer to develop as soon as possible and try to make it safe by studying real-world models empirically, rather than waiting until computing power is much greater and risking a "fast takeoff".

I don't know that I agree with this strategy, but I can respect that it's a consistent viewpoint.

So what I hear from him is "Yes, this is dangerous stuff, and we're trying our hardest to make it safe, but we can't control everyone, so we need regulation ASAP because market forces are going to push everyone to race and release unsafe AIs".

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by njarboe on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:18PM (#35981383)
Seems like a reasonable point of view from Sam. Better to have some kind of AGI catastrophe when some kind of Butlerian Jihad is still possible.
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by JohnFen on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:24PM (#35981433)
Yes, I know his point of view, but it doesn't really help answer the question.

> I can respect that it's a consistent viewpoint.

I don't think I agree that there's a great deal of consistency between that stated perspective and what OpenAI is actually doing. It's also, conveniently, a point of view that allows him to keep doing what he wants to do, and making bank by doing it.

Understand, I'm not saying he's a bad actor. I'm saying that it's hard to rule that out. From his WorldCoin stuff to this, there is plenty of reason to be suspicious of his motives.

Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by tarboreus on Thursday May 18, 2023 @02:45PM (#35992349)
Isn't it possible that Sam is actually a lizard person with a really good disguise?
Re:Sam Altman Isn’t the Answer to Regulating Artificial Inte... by elemos on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:44PM (#35981048)
They didn’t practically, they did. There was a specific exchange between Sam and members of the hearing in which a sitting US Senator asked him if he wanted the job. Sam replied no, he likes his job, but suggested they could recommend people. The Senator appeared happy with this.