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Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by gabaix on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:00AM (#35960601)
Some of the most populated zones of the Bay Area are built on top of superfund sites, which have high concentration of TCE underground.

https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-...

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by culi on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:38AM (#35961021)
This map (from 2015) shows sites with the most TCE groundwater contamination. Bay Area is actually quite clean. LA is completely fucked though

https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2018-tce/

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by xeromal on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:11AM (#35962145)
Thanks for this. Kind of happy my state of GA has none!
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by johnmaguire on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:48AM (#35962639)
It's not clear to me where this data comes from - do spots that are unmarked have none, or are they unmeasured?
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by bobthepanda on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @12:51PM (#35964510)
The data says it comes from public water systems. The EPA requires testing and reporting of water supplies for lots of things.

That being said, if you run your own private well, you’re not subject to this.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by hindsightbias on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:07AM (#35962876)
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by uoaei on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:56AM (#35962743)
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/toxic-chemical-fou...

> The Oakland Unified School district announced the temporary closure of the McClymonds to test for the chemical tricloroethylene (TCE), which was found in groundwater under the campus.

> "This is West Oakland and so there is a history of environmental injustice, of racial injustice that happens in this community. So these are places where there are leaks, there are dumps, there are things like that that are not healthy for our community," said Jumoke Hinton Hodge, Oakland Board of Education District 3 Director.

> McClymonds has recently seen a handful of students and former students develop cancer, including the high-profile cases Darryl Aikens, a McClymonds football player who died of leukemia a month after graduating in 2017, as well as 2018 graduate Ramone Sanders, who died of cancer last fall. Sanders was playing football at Laney College when he broke his leg and it was discovered he had bone cancer that spread to his lungs.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dekhn on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:32PM (#35969215)
Cancer has a fairly high incident rate in the general public, so anecdotes about people getting cancer due to industrial solvents is often suspect. Most observations can be explained by a combination of base rates, and social determinants of health.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by culi on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @10:00PM (#35983407)
The link between TCE and kidney cancer has already been very well established though. The Parkison's is just a cherry on top. If we know this place is contaminated, then we know there's increased risk of cancer. Full stop
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by uoaei on Thursday May 18, 2023 @08:44PM (#35996382)
Two extremely athletic high-school-age people die within two years of each other of mysterious cancers, with an obvious presence of cancer-causing chemicals, and you want to pretend that cancer statistics that are heavily weighted toward the older and more obese somehow have any relevance here?

Honestly I am quite disgusted at this take. How many readers want to bet this take is informed by more than a little implicit racial bias, these being Black men at a primarily Black high school in a primarily Black neighborhood?

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dekhn on Saturday May 20, 2023 @03:15PM (#36014717)
Well, I was trained as a scientist and medical researcher and did my phd thesis on cancer drugs. One thing you learn is that many people see patterns in cancer that are better explained by random numbers.

See this doc, including the section "Some important points to consider".

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/understanding-...

You can be disgusted all you want but I think you're making an error.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by jpmattia on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:00AM (#35962784)
> This map (from 2015) shows sites with the most TCE groundwater contamination.

But note there was more than TCE at those superfund sites.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by athoun on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @01:26PM (#35965013)
This is incorrect, or misleading at best. The map that you linked contains data about TCE levels in public water systems. It does not imply anything about the contamination of the ground water supply which exists below many homes in workplaces in throughout the Bay Area.

The vast majority of the Bay Area population gets its water either from the Hetch Hetchy (SF, South Bay, Peninsula) or the Mokelumne River watershed (East Bay). Ground water wells are rather uncommon for most areas here.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by culi on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:01PM (#35982312)
Fascinating. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by bilbo0s on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:30AM (#35960929)
Well one problem is that "Some of the most populated zones of" everywhere are superfund sites. Another, I learned long ago in the real estate business, is that superfund sites are just the sites they've taken the trouble to bother "cleaning up". As the article alludes to, it's not the documented TCE sites we need to worry about, it's the undocumented TCE sites that will likely get the average person. This same rule applies to real estate development.

One of the dirty secrets of development is that we really have just poisoned a lot of our environment. Now you can work around that in real estate dev because there are creative ways to interpret disclosure regulations. But Mother Nature doesn't care about such tricks. She has a set of, (in this case chemical), rules and if they're broken, she'll happily punish you without a second thought.

I'm not sure how we solve the issue of toxins in our environment? It gets complex not only because of the competing interests, but also because research like this will continue to come out, and something we didn't think was a problem, will turn out to have been a problem. So you're in a situation where you know a lot. You even learn more everyday. But you don't know what you don't know.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by walleeee on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:16AM (#35961465)
I can't help but think we've gone too far in limiting liability

Doing so may be an effective way to catalyze invention and economic activity but ignoring externalities becomes existentially risky as our capacities develop

If we prefer human arbitration to nature's blind and brutal judgment, we had better put toothy disincentives in place

Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy?

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by birdyrooster on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:16AM (#35962221)
Really well said, gets to the heart of the issue truly.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by anonymouskimmer on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:43AM (#35963421)
> Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy?

It's not even about punishing. If you cause a car or home accident because of a mistake, your insurance rates will go up, and if the damage exceeds your coverage, you'll pay out of pocket. There's nothing punitive about it, you're just responsible because of fault.

That shouldn't feel wrong. It should evoke pity, but not a feeling of wrongness.

For the heirs of the stockholders of these polluting companies we need a special tax to clean up the "accidents" of those companies. These taxes could be limited to the maximum value of the company, or better yet the proportion of the total wealth of the heirs that the company stock represented at the time they sold or dissolved the company. That's still limiting liability, but in the original sense of the term (clawback of sold and wipeout of retained shares).

For the heirs of anyone who made a purposeful decision to pollute despite knowing the harms, then the limited liability should be pierced to allow taxation of the fraction of the total wealth of the heirs that derive from the polluter.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by baremetal on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:45AM (#35962599)
I lived near the Fairchild superfund site for many years. I remember when it was a hollow husk of a concrete building. And then the paved it over and put a supermarket and whatnot there.

Growing up I knew a lot of kids that were affected by it, they were called "fairchildren" or a "fairchild".

I was born elsewhere and my family moved to the area, the kids that were born there weren't so lucky.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by jeffbee on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @12:14PM (#35963940)
There are small TCE plumes virtually everywhere in urbanized California. Every dry cleaner in history was just dumping waste TCE and PCE into holes in the ground. If you click around on this map, half of these sites are TCE/PCE (the other half are usually gas, diesel, and MTBE).

https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/map/?global_id=SL60019...

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by kelnos on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:11PM (#35969575)
Curious, Treasure Island (in the San Francisco Bay between SF and Oakland) is absolutely a Superfund site, but isn't marked on that map. Oh huh, apparently it avoided getting classified as a Superfund site[0]. Really makes me think that designation isn't all that useful anymore.

[0] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-s-Treasure-Is...