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Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by contravariant on Thursday May 11, 2023 @09:59AM (#35902189)
While that's true you do need to take into account the limited efficiency of power plants as well, especially when it comes to heating.

Simply burning gas to generate heat is basically 100% efficient, if you convert it to electricity first you'd need a COP of at least 1.7 to recover the energy lost while generating the electricity.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by bryanlarsen on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:01AM (#35902231)
A good heat pump has a COP of 4.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by contravariant on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:14AM (#35902403)
In practice or is that what the manufacturers claim?

Either way you should take into account you lose about 40% of that by simply converting the fuel to electricity, which is kind of the opposite of what happens when moving from combustion engines to electromechanical engines.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by Certhas on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:13PM (#35905139)
Depends on operating regime, but newly installed pumps typically are used in a way that gets close to 3.

You can generate electricity with a gas power plant at 50%, use that to operate heat pumps, and you will warm your house more than directly burning the gas.

Or put another way, in a gas dominated grid, switching from gas heating to heat pumps saves carbon gas emissions.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by chii on Friday May 12, 2023 @02:06AM (#35912545)
> you lose about 40% of that by simply converting the fuel to electricity

while that is true, it is only a stepping stone towards generating electricity renewably (let's say wind or solar).

The consumer ultimately decides the method (via market forces), and they are the easiest to convert first. If the demand for gas heating drops because of electrification, gas demand would fall (but the cost of extraction remains the same/similar), and therefore, makes electricity cheaper and cheaper.

The losses from current electricity conversion from gas at the plant is merely a short term loss for a better long term 'future', and i would consider it a cost of electrification.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by dahfizz on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:12AM (#35902385)
In ideal conditions. Even good heat pumps with COP >=4 will drop below 2 when it's cold out
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by throwaway473825 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:20AM (#35902490)
If it's very cold, yes. But the average should still be well above 3:

> Similarly, in Finland, tests of air-to-air heat pump systems from various manufacturers resulted in COPs of 3 at -10C and 2 at -20C.

Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-how-the-energy-crisis...

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by bryanlarsen on Thursday May 11, 2023 @10:20AM (#35902499)
Judging by how much insulation the typical English house has, it doesn't get cold there.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by stoobs on Thursday May 11, 2023 @11:31AM (#35903605)
Not as cold as the Nordics, sure, but depending on cycles, it can drop a few degrees below freezing between November - March

The main issue is that homes were designed to trap and keep heat in, rather than true insulation, which means that as summers get warmer, our homes turn into ovens, with no way to cool them down properly. Case in point last summer with UK temps hitting 40C and above for a few weeks.

Government are trying to kill off the old gas boilers though, with heat pumps being pushed very heavily, not sure if they're enforcing it yet or not though. Apparently they're also looking at switching out natural gas for a hydrogen mix, but that means having to rework a lot of the piping/valves as hydrogen needs much higher standards than currently applied.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by HPsquared on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:49PM (#35905670)
With the high summer temperatures (likely to rise further with climate change), I wonder why more people aren't fitting forced air heating/cooling. That would kill two birds with one stone. Even just a simple mini-split system.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by vidarh on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:29PM (#35908632)
The British seems to like to suffer in the heat. Every summer colleagues laugh at me for having AC units, and every summer they start loudly complaining about how hot it is a week or two later.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by tbjgolden on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:25PM (#35906193)
Yeah, had to get clued up on this for new house in London. A few points:

1. It is unlikely that hydrogen will be pushed heavily by the UK gov because of the expensive pipe rework. The reason they're pushing hard for heat pumps is because of the Glasgow Climate Pact; they're on the hook to reduce carbon emissions or pay heavy fines. To that extent, subsidising heat pumps becomes financially less unviable for them than doing nothing.

2. Regarding the heat in summer; the houses insulate well but don't do much to prevent heat coming in from the windows during summer. There are some pretty useful half-fixes; mvhrs+insulation, or recessed windows/overhangs/sunshades massively aid this. For those who rent that's not much help though :(

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by vidarh on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:27PM (#35908597)
Being from Norway but living in the UK: The average UK house is not built for UK temperatures... Insulation here is a bad joke, at least in older housing.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by throwaway22032 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @11:31AM (#35903600)
In the most populated regions of the UK it doesn't realistically go below -5c basically ever.

The average minimum temperature in the winter months in London is 3c above freezing.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by EwanToo on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:06PM (#35905902)
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by sgt101 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:25PM (#35906188)
as noted in the article - a once in 12 ish year event. So, 1/4000...
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by nindalf on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:53PM (#35906624)
Yeah we'll be fine unless extreme weather events become more common.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by lnsru on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:35PM (#35907312)
But then it’s nasty blackout. Somebody still needs to design electricity grid for one of these very rare events.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by Gwypaas on Thursday May 11, 2023 @03:41PM (#35907386)
Burn some fossil fuels from a "emergency national reserve". Perfect is the enemy of good.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by vidarh on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:25PM (#35908583)
A whole lot of other electricity demands drop massively at night, so while it needs to be planned for, the coldest nighttime period is also the time the electricity grid currently sees the lowest demand.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by throwaway22032 on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:34AM (#35914328)
People are also typically asleep under a ton of duvets. It's not an issue if your home drops to say 10-15c overnight and is warmer in the day.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by vidarh on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:17AM (#35914605)
True. Growing up in Norway I often even preferred sleeping with my bedroom window open during winter.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by throwaway22032 on Thursday May 11, 2023 @06:32PM (#35909237)
I'd just whack the wood burner on. It makes sense for people to have a backup.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by sgt101 on Friday May 12, 2023 @04:31AM (#35913506)
TBF that's not an option in London, or in apartments.

But - other comments have noted, some backup generation capability that use less green resources should be acceptable for such rare contingencies.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by throwaway22032 on Friday May 12, 2023 @06:25AM (#35914272)
I live in London and used mine in the winter, gas prices were insane.

Probably a good half of our homes have fireplaces and chimneys.

It's not cost effective for everyone to have a wood burner but if only a small percentage used them on the cold days we'd be fine.

People obsess a bit about pollution, as a response to rare events it's fine.

Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by speedgoose on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:26PM (#35906205)
I live in a relatively cold place and my heat pump extract heat from the ground. It's worth it where it's cold.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by fatfingerd on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:27PM (#35908606)
I did a double take on that claim about outdoor temperatures as I've always assumed people were talking about ground source heat pumps.
Re:Wind is main source of UK electricity for first time by mechagodzilla on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:50PM (#35905686)
With the most common high-temperature hydronic heating, it's closer to 80% efficiency when running steady-state, and lower than that as the duty cycle decreases (if the system is oversized or for the 99% of the time you're not at the design temp). The remaining energy escapes as hot, uncondensed flue gases. Modulating/condensing boilers can get up to like 95% if you're running with ~100-120F water temperatures, but at that point you can also readily run with an air-to-water heat pump.