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Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by sofixa on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:09AM (#35826564)
Pardon my French, but complete and utter nonsense.

> Michael Griffin. Griffin later estimated that SpaceX was around 85% funded by the federal government, mostly through his NASA awards, with the remaining 15% funding split between Elon Musk and other private investors. He felt the amount of government funding was "excessive in his view" compared with what he originally envisioned for the commercial space program.

From SpaceX's Wikipedia page. The Falcon 1 which was expandable, nothing special and cost ~$100 million was privately funded, the rest relied on very generous subsidies. (Regardless of Musk's posturing and outright lies)

On the contrary, outlandish and expensive (like aerospace) moonshot bets with uncertain financial benefits often happen due to government help, even in times of "unlimited money" which are far from the norm. For starters, Tesla and SpaceX both only happened due to US government subsidies; Airbus, the by far best civilian airplane manufacturer today, only exists because of European government pressure and funding. Bombardier only managed to design the C-series with Canadian government funds. All recent developments in renewables were off the back of massive subsidies for their adoption.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by zpeti on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:17AM (#35826613)
A subsidy is not the same thing as NASA ordering private contracts for actual “products”

Spacex didn’t get money handed to them (unlike the corn and oil industries). It got orders to complete certain tasks that NASA thought it might do better than itself. Boeing and many others got these types of orders too. It explains nothing about why spacex succeeded.

This “Elon did spacex thanks to government” is a serious misrepresentation of what happened, and if it was true, why is the government funded EU space program struggling so much?

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by sofixa on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:23AM (#35826650)
> Spacex didn’t get money handed to them (unlike the corn and oil industries). It got orders to complete certain tasks that NASA thought it might do better than itself. Boeing and many others got these types of orders too.

According to the WTO, those are overgenerous and the same as subsidies (check Airbus' cases against Boeing for illegal subsidies).

> It explains nothing about why spacex succeeded

Indeed, just money (even government money) is not sufficient. Never said it was, only that it is a flat out lie to say only private funding can innovate and that SpaceX/Tesla did it all on their own and Musk is a self-made man/billionaire.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by throwawaymaths on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:12AM (#35830266)
> According to the WTO, those are overgenerous

SpaceX offers payloads to space at an order of magnitude lower price than its competitors.

Infinity times cheaper in the case of the CRS contract, where the competitor has to date delivered 0 kg of human mass to space

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by jackmott42 on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:29AM (#35830521)
SpaceX costs might be an order of magnitude cheaper, but their prices are not, yet.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by panick21_ on Friday May 05, 2023 @01:21PM (#35832371)
> According to the WTO, those are overgenerous and the same as subsidies (check Airbus' cases against Boeing for illegal subsidies).

Interesting that you have to point to Boeing because no such case exists for SpaceX.

And all of those contracts for SpaceX were cheaper then what Arianespace could have offered, or any US competitor.

You are just parating lies that ArianeGroup has been spouting for a decade because they have no technical way to compete. Its literally just false propaganda.

The reality is ArianeGroup has and had subsidies far, far, far larger then what SpaceX had. The total cost of the original Falcon 9 was maybe 400M and maybe 300M of that was part of the governments program to get private supply for ISS (that the Europeans handed over to the US and SpaceX to do because they couldn't do it cheaply).

In comparison Ariane 6 is costing the government 4 billion $ minimum, likely more.

If anybody has grounds to complain with the WTO its SpaceX.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by raverbashing on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:09AM (#35830215)
The secret of SpaceX was that they got paid, but the government didn't manage the program (which is common with those other programs like SLS, Arianne, etc)

Also being in a position of 'up-and-comer' you definitely don't want to stay behind

But that being said, being reusable is great, but not a "be all, end all" objective. Sure, it can make launches cheaper, but not even Falcon 9 is reusable if they need to get to higher orbits (I believe the last F9H launch was fully expended)

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by panick21_ on Friday May 05, 2023 @01:16PM (#35832311)
> Falcon 1 which was expandable, nothing special and cost ~$100 million was privately funded

Nothing special just the first privately funded rocket to make it to orbit. The first new rocket engine developed in the US for decades.

> (Regardless of Musk's posturing and outright lies)

Musk has always acknowledged and publicly called out for the COTS contracts as being incredibly important and even saving SpaceX.

> For starters, Tesla and SpaceX both only happened due to US government subsidies

Both of those are wrong. Tesla was almost 10 years in before they received a public loan, and the accepted it because it was a slightly better deal then they could have gotten privately but they had other funding options.

SpaceX Falcon 1 didn't happen because of the government. The governments contract did accelerate the Falcon 9 project however.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by orbital-decay on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:33PM (#35833378)
> Nothing special just the first privately funded rocket to make it to orbit.

That would be Pegasus in 1990, though.

> The first new rocket engine developed in the US for decades.

There were plenty of engines developed in the US in that timeframe. Merlin in particular was a "spiritual successor" of the Fastrac, and Kestrel was implemented by the former Beal Aerospace engineers who worked on BA-2 before being hired by SpaceX.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by peterfirefly on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:14PM (#35833907)
Pegasus didn't have much of a path towards bigger payloads, though.

(It's launched from underneath an airplane.)

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by panick21_ on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:49PM (#35834990)
> That would be Pegasus in 1990, though.

Fair point.

> There were plenty of engines developed in the US in that timeframe.

Engines that actually flew or at least fully finished development. As far as I know there are none.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by orbital-decay on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:50PM (#35836546)
BA-810 (by a SpaceX predecessor, huge cheap engine!), Fastrac, RS-68, XRS-2200, TR-106, to name a few. These are only large liquid fuel engines created from scratch which either flew or have been fully tested in the US in a decade before the Merlin-1A. There were many more solids, derivatives, small engines, upper stage engines etc.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by chasd00 on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:10PM (#35834542)
the "government funding" of spacex is kind of a misnomer. It wasn't like a grant or some handout. It was payment for a product and service.