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Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by saberience on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:20AM (#35825796)
You're acting like Europe is living in the dark ages. Don't forget Europe also has companies like Arm and ASML, without which neither Apple nor Intel would be able to make processors.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by rektide on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:27AM (#35825846)
ASML is where it is because Apple and Intel dumped a ton of money into it. Intel especially back when they were doing fine, before the current rockier years. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-intel-asml/intel-funds-ne...

Still an incredible company. Absolutely. But worth pointing out how strongly they were driven to sucess by external factors.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:29AM (#35825869)
And because the US gave them the EUV tech on a silver platter to disrupt teh Japanese competition.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by sveme on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:24AM (#35826282)
Care to elaborate? Do you have a source for that? As far as I know the EUV lenses part was done by Zeiss and the EUV sources part by Trumpf.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:27AM (#35826299)
>As far as I know

Then you don't know the full story.

Important is who has the IP and license for the EUV technology that has proven to work the best. The only reason ASML won EUV lithography and its competitors Canon and Nikon lost, is that US decided to license its domestic EUV tech developed by Sandia Labs to ASML, and denied it to Canon and Nikon, purely because ASML acquired Silicon Valley Group Inc, US's leading lithography supplier at the time, giving ASML a strategic US presence on US soil, versus their Japanese competitors.

Nikon and Canon could also contrat Zeiss and Trumpf for the same parts that ASML gets but they don't have access to Sandia's EUV tech.

Also, light sources are made by Cymer, another US supplier that ASML bought. So you see, ASML is not some European wonder, as it wouldn't own the EUV market today if it weren't for strategic acquisitions on US soil that gave them the EUV monopoly they enjoy today.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by sveme on Friday May 05, 2023 @08:17AM (#35828274)
That's a bit like saying that Google would not exist without the contributions by Leo Katz. Or that Sandia's EUV tech would not exist without Ernst Abbés contributions. Everything's build on top of something.

But for some reasons all your posts seem to be intended to downplay anything coming from Europe. Which is fine, everyone needs a resident contrarian.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:07AM (#35829407)
I'm not downplaying anything, I'm being a realist among the hype that EU is some tech powerhouse when it's objectively much weaker than the EU fanboys would like to believe.

The US could have sold the EUV tech to Canon or Nikon and the Japanese would have owned the EUV industry, but the Dutch ASML played the political game better and won the deal but selling US tech doesn't make it an EU innovation.

And you can't compare licensed or bought tech to individual contributions from indvidual persons.

The US still owns the EUV tech ASML is using and has veto rights on what it can do with it and who it can sell it too. ASML would love to sell EUV steppers to China and make bank since China is desperate to ramp up its domestic fab industry, but US says "NO" and it must comply. The NL or the EU didn't veto the sale, the US did, and ASML complied because the US Gov have ASML by the balls since it's now also partly a US company monetizing US tech.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by saberience on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:42PM (#35833499)
Why would the USA "sell the EUV tech" to a European company if any American company could do it? It makes no fucking sense. The only thing that makes sense is that there was no American company to "sell the tech" to. You're living in cloud cuckoo fantasy land if you think the US simply had EUV fully developed and just happily donated it to a Europany company out of the goodness of their hearts.

If the tech was so easy and America held all the cards, the machines would be made in America, end of story.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by TinkersW on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:49PM (#35834281)
This video covers EUV development in Japan and US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OOta7Y6Ik

Yes it was developed by the US.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by saberience on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:26AM (#35838651)
No it wasn't, much work was done in the Netherlands by researchers there and the original prototypes were made in the Netherlands and shipped as demos to the US! The idea that it was solely developed in the US is a MAGA fever-dream of American exceptionalism. The US only did very early research but never actually built anything based on the research, the Netherlands and ASML built on the early research, did more research on top of it, and then actually made it work.

ASML also created the deals with Zeiss and other European companies which were critical in getting all the necessary components created to make EUV happen. None of this would have happened with Jos Benschop and Fred Bijkerk (in the Netherlands).

I agree that some research was done in Japan, Russia, and the US, but this is the case for basically every technology, it's never the case that only one country is responsible solely for something. I'm pointing out (correctly), that ASML kicked ass with EUV tech in a way that no other company did, including Intel, which shows they have something that no other company has. Again, if it was so easy, why isn't an American company making those machines which are critical for the entire worlds security and productivity?

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by foobiekr on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:21AM (#35830402)
I mean, all they have to do is read ASML's own writeup of this [1]. It's basically US-developed tech, US-funded and political-tactical partnerships. I just don't understand the confusion.

[1] https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-...

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by dralley on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#35830531)
Cymer (an American company that ASML bought out) makes the EUV source. Trumpf makes the CO2 laser that feeds the EUV source.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by MangoCoffee on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:40AM (#35830683)
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by brnt on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:56AM (#35826491)
> And also because the US gave them the EUV tech on a silver platter

Things Americans tell themselves ...

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:07AM (#35826550)
1. I'm European

2. That's the truth. If you can't accept it, I can't help you.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by brnt on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:11AM (#35827721)
2. I can't help it that you don't show any proof and clearly were not involved.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:06AM (#35829392)
>I can't help it that you don't show any proof

I posted the source here 3 times. Not my fault you don't read it.

>and clearly were not involved.

Did nearly a decade in the semi industry in Europe with stints in Israel, Singapore and the US.

But you keep taking the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe, I don't have time to convince random nay-sayers online and I'm not doxing myself to win an argument with a troll.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by brnt on Saturday May 06, 2023 @08:59AM (#35840917)
> I don't have time to convince random nay-sayers online

You seem to go out of your way to do so anyway. Doesn't fit with the picture of the seasoned expert you're trying to paint of yourself.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by MangoCoffee on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:40AM (#35830695)
"The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has announced an agreement with ASM Lithography (Einhoven, Netherlands) that would allow the company to participate in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography development effort now underway in Livermore, Calif."

https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by brnt on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:00AM (#35840932)
It doesn't say anything about tech sharing, it in fact states that ASML has an existing EUV business. It also contains at least one error: Canon and ASML are not of similar size.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by saberience on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:19AM (#35830355)
If it was just based on money, why wouldn't Intel do it themselves, or anyone else for that matter? ASML is basically a monopoly, there is clearly big money to be made if someone else could make those machines.

I think you're doing disservice to the engineers and researchers at ASML suggesting they are only there because the US sent them money.

Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by dralley on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:28AM (#35830505)
Because the only way to make it profitable for anyone is to get the economies of scale of everyone behind the same development. Intel, Samsung and TSMC all invested a lot of money in ASML to get EUV over the finish line.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by belter on Friday May 05, 2023 @01:49PM (#35832744)
The IPhone would never be possible without China. Or each model would cost $10,000.
Re:Arianespace CEO: Europe won't have reusable rockets for a... by dejv on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:53AM (#35826079)
Don't forget precision machinery of all kinds: from industrial CNCs, medical instrumentation or electron microscopes.