I have to disagree. That Western Society has systemically chosen to redefine them as luxuries and has forced its residents to treat them as luxuries, rather than the obligation for a healthy human experience that they are is a major source of the harm we experience every day.

We need to return to considering and treating them as the mandatories that they are or else we will continue to experience the cost of neglecting them, just like neglecting Vitamin C results in scurvy.

I think it's important to note that they're luxuries in the modern society we've built for ourselves in the West. Long, long ago, small communities without access to high-speed travel provided social support; no cars and little white-collar work means exercise was baked into life with much walking and manual labor; diet was mostly unprocessed food farmed nearby; and no screens or even electricity meant sleep well before midnight till dawn.

Of course, there were plenty of problems back then, too - I'm not saying it was an idyllic utopia. But in our modern life, it seems like we've just traded one set of problems for another.

No, no, everything is a personal failing. Pull yourself up by those bootstraps. What externalities?

I understand this is probably an uncomfortable topic, but I’d love to hear more from you on this.

Couldn't agree more. Seems like a lot of people on here think that low-income earners eat off of the McD's dollar menu by choice.

I absolutely don't think that.

I think that company owners, share holders, "The Economy" have decided that low earners don't deserve healthy lives; and that many of those low earners have been tricked into agreeing that it's best to live "under foot" and that those things are luxuries.

It would be like cheering a factory on for all the missing arms its employees have, and then having all the factory employees mock the newcommers with two arms trying to protest losing an arm only to have the tenured ones laugh at them and think that's privilege.

We've brainwashed generations of self and systemic harm

Beans, rice, eggs and oats are cheaper, healthier and quicker than Mcdonalds. (Rice is not quicker). If McDonals were the only choice they wouldn't be spending millions on advertising.

They're also more emotionally taxing to create, and come with several externalities that aren't baked in to the price of the dollar menu:

  * dish washing (do they even have dishes?)
  * power usage of stove
  * time to clean up
  * a singular, large lump of time to go out and buy all those food
  * the necessary mental spoons to plan those numerous meals each week
  * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example)
  * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks

And so on

  * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken, for example)

Other than eggs, and this is in the US not all countries, you don't need a refrigerator for the listed items. Beans, rice, and oats do not require refrigeration. Many fruits and vegetables also don't need refrigeration [0].

  * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks

This is mitigated by learning what does and does not need to be refrigerated and storing things properly.

[0] https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/Storing%...

They are only that way because our society treats them as luxuries instead of baseline "these are needed to properly take care of yourself."

Apparently only the rich deserve things like this, according to US society.

You know, rich folks like Steve Jobs who definitely listen to their doctors and their support networks and definitely don't fall for quacky bullshit that means they die from a totally manageable type of cancer.

If you put diet, exercise, sleep, and social support on a sliding scale, can you honestly say that you're doing everything in your power to maximize each one?

I don't know your personal details, but most people who think this way are not actually trying their hardest in each category. Sure, some small percentage is going to face monumental challenges. But look at the data in the US for example. 70% of our deaths are caused by NCDs. Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits

> Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits

And yet they don't, so it suggests to me that "it's not that simple". It's better to imagine that people _are_ doing what they can and it's still not enough, so rather than victim blaming, we can discover what's actually going on in these people's lives that's stopping their ability to reach it.

Are they so downtrodden that it's not worth the effort anymore? Are they actually working 2-3 jobs and 100 hours of unexpected time a week so they literally don't have time? Do they live so far away from work because they can't afford to live close such that all their time is spent commuting and they have no extra time anymore?

I think for a lot of people it is that simple. Doing what’s right for your health is more difficult and requires sacrifice.

Dopamine is easy to get from doom scrolling on your phone, watching Netflix, or playing video games. You don’t even have to leave your chair. Exercise is hard. It requires you to exert yourself and it requires training over time to see tangible results.

Same thing with food. Going through a McDonald’s drive through is easy and the salt, fat, and sugar taste good to most of us. Cracking open a cook book, putting together a shopping list, and going to the grocery store is hard. It requires planning, it requires thought. Then you have to come home and cook the food, which requires even more effort. If you cook something healthy, it won’t be loaded up with all the salt, fat, and sugar that people have become accustomed to.

Getting enough sleep requires discipline and sacrificing time. Time you could be spending doing activities that release dopamine, such as playing video games, or watching videos.

Developing a healthy social support network is difficult too. It’s easy to post things or like things on Facebook or Hacker News. It’s much more difficult to get out there and be part of clubs or doing group activities and meeting and engaging with people in the real world. You have to leave your house. You have to put yourself out there and be a little bit vulnerable. It’s particularly hard if you’re an introvert. Nurturing strong family relationships takes a lot of effort too. You have to be the mean parent that kicks your kids off video games to play board games or go on a nature hike together. It’s a lot easier to let a screen babysit them all day.

I’m only talking about middle and upper class social dynamics of course. I’ve been fortunate enough to never experience poverty or food insecurity. I’m sure it’s not nearly that simple for people in that situation.

Our economic system has engrained in us that if you aren't doing your competitive advantage money earner, it's better to outsource that to someone who does.

That's extended to all facets of life and has bought us a lot of luxury time, which of course has led to a rise in dopamine factory applications, goods, and services to fill that time.

Many people honestly believe "why would i spend time grocery shopping if i can just pay someone else to cook for me?"

There's something to be said for the effort of doing things.

Let's be intellectually honest here.

It's not victim blaming to point out that "can't" isn't reasonable language. Life is hard. Doesn't mean we "can't" have some control over these variables. As I said, there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios.

> there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they don't represent the bulk of scenarios.

You say this, but you also say, "Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their benefits"

70% and "most of 70%" are still either a majority or at the very least a plurality; so, I have to strongly disagree that they don't represent the bulk of the scenarios.

Is your argument that most people are lazy and should suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?

Within that 70%, most of them can:

- Afford to eat healthier foods. Rice, potatoes, bell peppers, onions, lentils, ground beef, pork chops, eggs, are not expensive. Time is a bigger factor but I don't buy the time argument in most cases either. Just need to prioritize.

- Improve their sleep. Most people have terrible sleep habits and there is a load of free information available for anyone who wants to make a positive change.

- Exercise. Walking 30 minutes each day yields most of the available benefit. Strength training is also available for most of the population. A secondhand kettlebell is like 20 dollars. Calisthenics are free. Some gym memberships go as low as 10/month.

>Is your argument that most people are lazy and should suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?

If you want to phrase it that way in order to paint me as the bad guy, then sure. But I would prefer to start with not giving up personal responsibility. Not throwing our hands up and blaming externalities, big food, and big pharma. If someone has that attitude, what hope do they have? Do you not believe in empowering people? If we validate every single persons' victim card, they will eventually believe they have no control over their lives. And that's just not true.

I don't think lazy is the best framing. I do think most people have bad habits around sleep, diet, and exercise. It's difficult to change these habits even if you have a good mentor, which most people don't. It's also very human to ignore advice and take the path of least resistance.

I have been in that place myself for most of my life and for able-bodied people it is possible to get 150 minites of low-intensity excercise a week, more sun, leafy greens, a can of sardines each day, and such low-effort interventions which have a high impact on health and well-being.

My advice to those people would be to start slow and not beat yourself up about having a milkshake and such. It takes time to build habits and good habits tend to cascade and encourage you, especially when you are happier with what you see in the mirror.

> Is your argument that most people are lazy

Yes most adults are extremely lazy and undisciplined.

>Yes most adults are extremely lazy and undisciplined.

If you do not believe this statement, ask the opinion of any medical provider you know.

Good food I can see as a luxury. How is exercise a luxury though? It seems like going for a walk or a run is available to almost everyone.

If anything it seems like those on the lower income level would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more than the wealthy.

> would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more

I have no citation, but I believe most low-income jobs in the US involve:

  * standing for long, long hours and not moving (cashiers)
  * sitting for long, long hours and not moving (call centers)

Is someone holding a gun to your head and preventing you from eating fruits and vegetables?

They are not luxuries. Modern society has just made it easy to neglect these things for various reasons. The lies we tell ourselves about it not mandatory until you burn out or need medical intervention.

Modern medicine will provide various interventions to help out such as trying to balance your brain chemistry, lowering obesity, blood pressure, etc. Many of the things prescribed to us today are due to lifestyle choices.

There's a growing corpus of evidence that diet has incredible potential for treating serious brain disorders (when done with a psychiatrist, especially if you're already medicated)[0].

At the end of the day, you are the only person who sets the priorities in your life. If you don't make maintenance of your body and mind a priority, the bill will come later.

[0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-energy

For the most profoundly addicted, the acutely dying, and those who are mentally ill to the point of being unable to participate in society these are luxuries.

For everyone else, they are mandatory.

Exercise is the easiest. Exercise isn't running and weightlifting, exercise is pushing your body to the limits so that its limits slowly increase over time. For 600lbs people exercise may be standing up and sitting down. For the elderly, like my 92 year old grandmother with COPD, exercise is curling and doing overhead presses with a heavy book while seated. People with cystic fibrosis exercise, and are usually exercise machines because if they stop they die. Patients in iron lungs exercise. The only people who can't exercise are those in hospice care. If you can stand, standing until you cannot stand anymore is exercise. If you can walk, 5 seconds more walking than you did yesterday is exercise. Wheelchair-bound patients with Osteogenesis Imperfecta can (and are highly encouraged to) exercise. Exercise costs $0.00.

If you are so ill that you cannot pick up a 1 lbs dumbbell, putting a rubber band around your fingers and opening and closing your hand is exercise and will have benefits. If you are not acutely dying, you can exercise.

All forms of exercise at all levels for all people has a benefit-- however small, it is a benefit.

Eating right is harder, but is accessible to any able-bodied, homed, person. Able-bodied doesn't mean healthy. Able-bodied means "able to turn on a hotplate and lift a bag of beans."

Social support is the hardest, but is doable for all but the most mentally ill. There are roughly 35,000 social support groups full of people looking for a social support network dotted across the country. Many of them meet online so anyone who can read HN can participate as a first step.

Lacking a social support network is often fatal to human beings, and those who lack support need to work extremely hard to obtain one, but it isn't impossible.