News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by Ma8ee on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @01:11PM (#35716980)
The time scale for new species adapted to a completely new climate is many millions of years, not a few thousands. What we destroy today won’t be replaced while humans as a species as we know it today even exists.

It will always be many orders of magnitude easier to terraform Earth, even after we screwed it up, than trying to terraform Mars.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by yummypaint on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @01:31PM (#35717265)
We have been agressively terraforming the earth into a form less accomodating of current complex life for some time now, and we show no signs of slowing. That's the whole problem
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by gizmo686 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:00PM (#35717664)
Agressively?

We increased CO2 concentration by about 200 parts-per-million (a factor of about 2x), and increased the average temperature by about 1-2°C. Rain patterns are slightly different. Ocean PH levels dropped by about 0.04 .

Sure, given how delicate the biosphere is, these small changes have a significant effect. However, if we look at Earth on the same scale as any other object in the solar system, the environment on Earth today is almost identical to the environment on Earth 1,000 years ago. The atmosphere is about 1023 millibars; 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 1% argon, and 0.04% everything else. Liquid water covers most of the surface, with an active water cycle causing water rain to occur periodically over much of the planet.

The temperature change is so small, that we would not notice it if it were on any other planet in the solar system, and it is far below the noise floor of day-to-day variance

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by robocat on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:27PM (#35718012)
They might be talking about farmland. For example, pastures, agriculture and forestry in New Zealand has approximately zero in common with the native flora & fauna that was here before humans modified the environment. The native plants that remain are virtually all in areas that are simply too uneconomic to farm in any way (usually mountainous). ~55% of New Zealand is being used for sheep and cattle, and another 8% for exotic forestry.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by codersfocus on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:51PM (#35718311)
Yes aggressively. Raising the average (I don't understand why you'd bring up noise when discussing average) temperature of the entire Earth by 1-2 degrees C in a period of 100 years, from 1 single organism is remarkable. Any why specify CO2 as if that's the only thing we're polluting with? What about methane? Remember when we disrupted the ozone layer? What about pollution with plastics, and industrial chemicals in land and water?

And don't forget that the Earth is more than willing to enter a negative feedback loop -- she will take that 1-2 degree increase in temperature and say "I heard you like warm weather, so I'm gonna release all this trapped methane and CO2 from my frozen parts and let you have it too."

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by sclarisse on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:14PM (#35718580)
If we want to make the temperature on Mars like the one on Earth, it’s not going to take 2C and a feedback loop. It’s going to take like 75C.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by eastof on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:56PM (#35719109)
This is such a dangerous perspective. Why would we want to make the temperature on Mars like the one on Earth!?! We already have 7 Billion people here to take care of and we're already witnessing mass heat, flooding, and famine deaths from climate change. People focusing on colonizing Mars when we have such an immediate problem to address TODAY are delusional and actively endangering the most vulnerable people in the world.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by sclarisse on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:32PM (#35719546)
I don’t understand what you’re saying is dangerous exactly, because the thread you’re replying to is full of people pointing out the ludicrousness of “terraforming Mars” compared to doing anything-at-all on Earth: pointing out the massive gulf between “massive” human impact and what is necessary for Mars (far, far greater).

I interpret this as you misinterpreting the opinions here, confusing them with the opinion of unrelated colonization-fanatics, via an unknown mechanism; I will not attempt any defense of either perspective right now.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by ordu on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:20PM (#35719413)
I believe that your reasoning misses one crucial detail: we do not exactly know how to climate control a whole planet, we have almost no experience with that.

Attempts to terraform Mars allow humans to try some things and to see what happens. It will allow to make our models of climate more precise.

For now our understanding of a climate based on observational studies. Not a controlled experiment. So when we start to do something having some climatic goals in mind, we'll start to learn a lot. And it would be better for Earth if we started with Mars.

Though we have no time, but it doesn't seem a sufficient reason not to try get at least some experience from terraforming Mars. It may reduce risks.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by biotech on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:36PM (#35720340)
> People focusing on colonizing Mars when we have such an immediate problem to address TODAY are delusional and actively endangering the most vulnerable people in the world.

I don't agree with the logic that we cannot focus on two things at the same time. It's like saying, "People focusing on making movies when we have such an immediate problem to address TODAY are delusional and actively endangering the most vulnerable people in the world." or "People focusing on curing fibromyalgia when we have such an immediate problem to address TODAY are delusional and actively endangering the most vulnerable people in the world."

The bottleneck to reversing climate change is not money or manpower, it is politics. We cannot force other people (especially in other countries) to do the right thing for the environment. We can, however, do our best to improve things on our side and pressure others to do so as well. And while we are putting our best effort towards that, we shouldn't stop making art, researching medicine, or even, trying to colonize mars.

Also, the research and development needed to colonize Mars may very well yield scientific discoveries that allow us to reverse climate change. And even if it doesn't, and Earth is ruined despite our best efforts here, we won't have all our eggs in one basket.

My point is, I just do not believe that researching colonization of Mars will do anything to thwart our efforts to improve the Earth. Quite the contrary, it may help those efforts.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by CM30 on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:08AM (#35725278)
> I don't agree with the logic that we cannot focus on two things at the same time

This times a million. I see it all the time on social media when it comes to news stories too, and it's as ridiculous there as it is here. People have different interests and skillsets, and they don't all need to focus on the same thing at the same time. The folks looking to explore Mars colonisation/space exploration and those working to slow down or prevent climate change are usually entirely different groups, who have studied what they're interested in for years. You can't just chuck them all at a single 'project' and refuse to allow anything else, in the same way we can't pause the rest of human civilisation because your pet issue isn't being sorted quickly enough, or have the entirety of a media organisation reassigned to a single story.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @07:01PM (#35721116)
I agree with you for the most part, but I don't get on their case so much because the kinds of advancement (e.g. re: recycling) that you'd need to settle on Mars are also the kinds of advancement you'd need to fix things here on Earth.

We live in an environment that's we're so conveniently adapted for us that it's easy to take for granted. You can spend your whole life doing damage to this precious thing we all got for free and die before the consequences of your actions catch up with you. It's all too easy to just miss ecological thinking altogether.

On a spacecraft though, or a Martian colony, the f-around-find-out cycle is gonna be deadly short. You're gonna need everyone in board with doing what they need to to stay alive.

Again, something we desperately need on Earth.

So let them fail to colonize Mars. Let them fail 100 times. Because what we learn from those failures just might save us at home.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by holoduke on Thursday April 27, 2023 @07:19AM (#35726372)
Amount of floodings and deaths because of natural disasters and famine have never been so low compared to what history tells us. In no way I want to argue against climate change. But it's important to not become a hysterical Greta type of person and to approach our climate issues with proper factual science. Not emotions.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @06:50PM (#35721031)
Responding to a + change with another + change is a positive feedback loop.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by mcguire on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:53PM (#35718337)
"Globally agricultural land area is approximately five billion hectares, or 38 percent of the global land surface. About one-third of this is used as cropland, while the remaining two-thirds consist of meadows and pastures) for grazing livestock."

https://www.fao.org/sustainability/news/detail/en/c/1274219/

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by RGamma on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:27PM (#35718726)
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by throwway120385 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @06:36PM (#35720911)
That 1-2 degree C change is enough to cause mature trees all over my US state to start dying of heat stress every year. So yes, it seems warranted. I've never seen anything like it in my 37 years on this earth.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by taneq on Thursday April 27, 2023 @02:57AM (#35724250)
Yeah and we’ve done that in a couple of hundred years. On geological time scales that’s more or less instant.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by ke88y on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @01:17PM (#35717067)
> It will always be many orders of magnitude easier to terraform Earth, even after we screwed it up, than trying to terraform Mars.

It's many orders of magnitude easier to afford a $100,000,000 home if you make $10,000 per year than if you only make $1 per year.

But you're never going to afford that home either way.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by replygirl on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @01:31PM (#35717263)
We reversed the Chicago River 120 years ago, protected the Netherlands from flooding for centuries, blasted out the bed of the East River to make New York one of the most successful ports in history, laid at least one canal through every major ithsmus, and built dozens of reservoirs and irrigation systems into every hydrological ecosystem that touches a major population center. That's just water projects.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by gus_massa on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:19PM (#35717924)
> We reversed the Chicago River 120 years ago

I had never heard that. More info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_River

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by ke88y on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:31PM (#35718062)
None of these are even remotely close to terraforming.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by ask_b123 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:16PM (#35718614)
What is an isthmus? Do the Pyrenees count as one? Tehuantepec?
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by Ma8ee on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:20AM (#35724868)
Certainly. What I was trying to say was that the notion of terraforming Mars as an escape when we screwed up here is absurd.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by njarboe on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @01:48PM (#35717502)
Hopefully in the future we will have two beautiful worlds full of life. Doesn't that dream seem great?
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by ascar on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:10PM (#35718535)
> The time scale for new species adapted to a completely new climate is many millions of years, not a few thousands.

On what are you basing this statement? I would argue that entirely depends on the complexity of the species and the time per generation. Bacteria certainly can adapt to extremely different conditions within years, if not even quicker. And these "simple life forms" are arguably much more important for the ecosystem than more complex ones like mammals.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by melagonster on Thursday April 27, 2023 @01:06PM (#35731211)
if you only want bacteria, maybe. but even insects or spider still need more and more time to evolve closely new species. we even don't need to talk how many time for evolving a new mammal species. plants will extinct, too.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by anonymouskimmer on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:49PM (#35720504)
> The time scale for new species adapted to a completely new climate is many millions of years, not a few thousands. What we destroy today won’t be replaced while humans as a species as we know it today even exists.

When it comes to changing climate (and some degree of pollution) instead of newly evolved adaptations you get migrations or selection for particular alleles. Adjust up and back down and you can end up with diversity constraints on both ends.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by Ma8ee on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:32AM (#35738156)
Some manages to migrate or adapt. Many won’t. Either because there’s nowhere to migrate to, or because there’s no path there available. In the end, we will lose a lot of biodiversity.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by anonymouskimmer on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:00PM (#35745595)
That's exactly my point.