If there is any good news about this it is that Full Self Driving appears to be a more difficult problem than Elon expected and they are struggling with it.
The problem is not that an automaker wanted to have functionality that could legitimately unlock cars for legitimate customers. The problem is that creating this functionality entailed making a much larger backdoor that will invariably be abused by independent attackers, police, the company itself, etc - to do much more than merely unlock the doors.
There have been numerous talks at security conferences and solid research done on the security of Teslas. I don’t think you realize how sophisticated these things are. The infotainment system and the CAM bus are not the same software, for example. And attackers aren’t gaining remote access to them either (Teslas use stronger ssh keys than you do). So I’m not sure how this mega backdoor FUD even plausibly exists. A car isn’t a safe either, if law enforcement has a warrant for my car, or house, they’re going to forcibly break in if needed (heck they’ll even do that for a safe). Seems better to have Tesla legally complying/cooperating with law enforcement than the alternative where people use force.
I’m not saying we should build backdoors into everything for the kids, just to be clear. But I can be a happy consumer/user of a car with remote unlock functionality that’s implemented more responsibly than your npm account without devolving into “zomg Tesla backdoors your life to give you that feature” histrionics. That’s just not true. Like you, I would love to see, just like I argue for phones, the ability for enthusiasts and/or hyper paranoid people to install their own software roots in a supported manner if they don't want another party having access or if they want to delegate to a different 3rd party. And let me turn it on/off, sure. But having a car with remote unlock is not some gateway drug selling your digital soul.
SSH !?! This is exactly my point - a much larger functionality than what is required to merely unlock doors. Talking about a remote command prompt in terms of door unlocking functionality is utterly disingenuous.
You're the one engaging in histrionics here. From the sour grapes about the imbalanced power relationship created by functionality you enjoy, to pigeonholing anybody who cares about how ownership is being eroded as "hyper paranoid". FWIW it's perfectly consistent to consent to trusting specific manufacturer(s), while still being concerned about the societal effects of this being normalized.
It's certainly possible to implement the same functionality you enjoy in ways that put the owner in charge and treat the company as a possible attacker. It just takes more rigorous design and development, and isn't likely to happen on its own as long as people continue to carry water for simplistic centralization.
Yeah. I'm not so naive to try and argue `unlock` is the only thing Tesla can do to your car remotely. Like I've said, they can update your car if you agree. If they can update the car then they can do whatever the hell the hardware allows, in theory. This is true for anything (software/firmware/younameit) that can be updated. Are you reading this on a computer with a modern OS?
I never said we shouldn't be critical of centralization and eroded notions of ownership. I am rebutting the sensationalized "Tesla has a persistent backdoor to your car and is using it to spy on you" spin on the issue. At this point in my life I'm becoming more of a tech pragmatic. One thing that has become clear to me over the years is that people don't want to be single points of failure. Putting people in that position yields poor products/user experiences. I believe there's a way to legislate and lay ground rules for ownership and access to consumer hardware that allows custody to be responsibly shared between a company and a consumer. I don't believe we're socially there yet, but making up fake news about how companies are spying on users and can't be trusted doesn't help progress the dialog.
Trust is always an issue and always present. We have to make trust decisions. What I'm advocating for is making decisions based on facts and evidence, not FUD and speculation. What I'm arguing is that it's important whether Tesla is acting in a way that is rightfully deceitful and has given users reasons to not Trust them. If the evidence shows Tesla is being dishonest and operating in a way that is not in accordance with their privacy policy, then yeah grab the pitch forks I'll be there right next to you. This goes for anybody asking for trust, not just #companieselonmuskhastouched.
Otherwise name an EV that isn't cloud connected, is somehow innately more trustworthy, and that saves me 5k/year on gas.
I had hoped we weren't going to go down this path. It's not the responsibility of the free world to try to pry the exact details from closed systems to demonstrate their exact insecurities. Based on the functionality they have (remote update) plus the various bits that have been reported about their infrastructure (remember that reddit post about MSWin+bubblegum?) plus the general pattern when any proprietary system says "trust us we're sooper sequre", Tesla (any every other centralized system) really does not deserve any benefit of the doubt that they have done work to actually design a telemetry/privilege minimizing system.
> If the evidence shows Tesla is being dishonest and operating in a way that is not in accordance with their privacy policy
Meh. The penalty for violating privacy policies in the US is zilch, and even if it weren't such policies are generally non-binding and can be retroactively changed at any time. Without a privacy law ala the GDPR, the sensible thing to do is to assume that any piece of information you feed into the surveillance industrial complex will be stored indefinitely and may eventually be used against you.
> What I'm advocating for is making [trust] decisions based on facts and evidence
I feel like we could have some common ground here, but your previous arguments have carved off way too much in defense of lazily-implemented centralized control, based on seeing no evil. If it's possible to architect systems such that they don't backhaul information to their manufacturer or give their manufacturer ongoing control, then we should criticize those that do - regardless of the pragmatism of using them anyway because they are the least worst option and/or beneficial in other aspects.
I myself use many things that compromise my own privacy through suboptimal implementations, but I'm not going to sit here and defend the companies because they haven't been caught doing anything too hostile at the moment. Rather I accept that they're inherently attackers that I've chosen to trust (NSA definition) with some amount visibility into and control over my activities due to other benefits they provide - while remaining generally interested in more secure alternatives.
Actually you're wrong. It is the responsibility of the person making an accusation to back up their accusation with credible evidence and facts. That's how things work in the free world, at least. Presumption of guilt is just too dangerous and detrimental to a free society and so presumption of innocence is ingrained in our entire legal and judicial framework.
I'm not defending Tesla in the face of evidence that they are naive and abusive. There's simply not evidence in the first place that they're naive and abusive (and if there is, you've certainly failed to procure it). There is, in fact, the opposite, as reported by security researchers and as stated in their privacy policy.
> Tesla (any every other centralized system) really does not deserve any benefit of the doubt that they have done work to actually design a telemetry/privilege minimizing system.
It's not the benefit of the doubt. I was literally in the room at Defcon when Kevin Mahaffey and Marc Rodgers gave the talk that kicked off the Tesla bug bounty and security research program in 2015. And they had good things to say. Certainly their impression was not "this shit's dubious IDK if we can trust Tesla's security engineering" which you seem to be implying is your default impression because Tesla is #bigtech.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-hackers-explain-how-they-did-it-at-def-con-23/
Here are some privacy policy excerpts:
> Your Tesla generates vehicle, diagnostic, infotainment system, and Autopilot data. To protect your privacy from the moment you take delivery, Tesla does not associate the vehicle data generated by your driving with your identity or account by default. As a result, no one but you would have knowledge of your activities, location or a history of where you’ve been. Your in-vehicle experiences are also protected. From features such as voice commands, to surfing the web on your touchscreen, your information is kept private and secure, ensuring the infotainment data collected is not linked to your identity or account.
> Tesla enables you to control what you share. Within your vehicle’s touchscreen you may enable or disable the collection of certain vehicle data (Software > Data Sharing), including Autopilot Analytics & Improvements and Road Segment Data Analytics. If you choose to enabled data sharing, your vehicle may collect the data and make it available to Tesla for analysis. This analysis helps Tesla improve its products, features, and diagnose problems quicker. The collected information is not linked to your account or VIN and does not identify you personally.
Do you have evidence that Tesla is not honoring its privacy policy? If you want to change my mind, show me the data on how Tesla's systems are insecure/naive/user-hostile and I'm happy to continue the conversation.
PS
Consider this: you can buy a Tesla in the EU, no? You think Tesla has code like `if user.country == "USA" && user.state != "CA" { user.abuse() }`? I think it's actually more likely that, since Tesla is a global company, that they have a better security and privacy story than most strictly-USA focused companies. I actually trust small US startups far less than mature multinational corporations with my data. I've been at both and large companies have swaths of lawyers making sure people are in compliance with the law where small startups have trendy founders that prefer to ask forgiveness rather than ask permission.
This isn't tenable for security, especially in light of computational complexity. Rather it is up to the party claiming "trust me" to show that they are trustworthy. One major way of doing this is to publish source code that is easier to audit than having to reverse engineer. There is a long history of proprietary companies claiming to be secure while actually being an absolute mess internally. In the face of that dynamic, it is reasonable to be suspect of proprietary systems a priori.
> Do you have evidence that Tesla is not honoring its privacy policy? If you want to change my mind, show me the data on how Tesla's systems are insecure/naive/user-hostile and I'm happy to continue the conversation.
The argument isn't that Tesla is not honoring its "privacy policy" or is currently abusing its backdoors today. Rather it's that the systems they have shipped can be easily abused tomorrow. I've used the words "insecure" and "naive" about the security of Tesla's cars versus Tesla as the attacker - a threat model that bug bounties generally don't address. I do agree that currently, Tesla is (seemingly) not doing much attacking of their customers. The point is that can change tomorrow and the software has been seemingly designed so there will be little the owners of cars can do to protect themselves.
I looked through your comment history to see where you're coming from. Surely as a Linux user you can appreciate that there is a stark difference between software that is widely expected to respect your own interests as the user (and has been decently scrutinized for this quality), and mostly opaque software that has been created by a company to chiefly serve that company's interests? Especially software that has Internet access, so that its behavior can change when the company's interests change?
https://electrek.co/2023/03/24/tesla-hacked-winning-hackers-...
Tesla literally paid people 100k to pentest their car so they could fix any bugs/issues found, so that you don't get hacked.
But with another car, I can choose who (if anyone) I'm willing to give that ability to. I certainly wouldn't want it to be Tesla.
You could design one of those apps to end-to-end encrypt all comms with the car, but I don't think most people would appreciate the usability hit.
Correct. And that (along with everything else related to it) is why I won't own a car that was made too recently.
Anyway, if you don't want to use vehicles which communicate with a server then good for you. Really. But if you’re taking such a stance I hope it’s based on informed data and consistent principles and not cringy FUD.
None that I'm aware of.
> Tesla comms are encrypted.
Which is very good, but still leaves the problem of Tesla getting the data.
> if you’re taking such a stance I hope it’s based on informed data and consistent principles and not cringy FUD.
I'm taking this stance because the history of the tech industry's practices in this area is full of so much abuse that nobody gets the benefit of the doubt anymore.
> Thats the agreement I have with the manufacturer.
I'm glad that you are comfortable with that level of trust with Tesla (or any car company). I am not. Which is, I suppose, why you'll own a Tesla and I won't.
Let me put it this way. In this case, specifically, what you're claiming is pretty outrageous and, if true, sounds like something I should take more seriously too. If you can give me examples of Tesla abusing users' trust and operating in a way that is not in accordance with their privacy policy, user consent, and/or general understanding of techno-decency, then please surface the evidence to support your claims so I can consider your argument more seriously. Otherwise what you're claiming does not align with my experience owning a Tesla and my knowledge about how they're designed and engineered.
The pragmatic in me understands that there is always a risk that a future software update will change the behavior of a product in a way that is not in my interests. That is a risk I take by using any software product and something that responsible people keep an eye on, agreed. I'm just not going to categorically avoid software that can be updated out of fear that it could start spying on me. If it starts spying on me without my consent, good bye.
I also understand that we may even have different tolerances for living with connected hardware and software. If you're the type of person that compiles their own firmware and updates their own devices offline after personally vetting the software, I'd buy your concern about trust a little more too. But honestly it just sounds more like you're saying "yuck Tesla, I wouldn't trust them to build a respectful product", while ignoring the fact that you're likely posting this from a smartphone, if you know what I mean.
I have made no specific claims, I think. If I did, they were unintentional. What I'm claiming is more general: that in the tech industry, data collection on users has been so widely abusive that I am not comfortable trusting any company with data collection by default. Specific companies can earn my trust, of course. No car company has done that, therefore I trust none of them with my data.
Is this the claim you're referring to?
> But honestly it just sounds more like you're saying "yuck Tesla, I wouldn't trust them to build a respectful product"
I do not intend to be singling Tesla out except insofar as Tesla (as I understand it) engages in more data collection than other car manufacturers. That said, I'm a bit more suspicious of Tesla just because of Musk. Not a lot more suspicious, but some.
> while ignoring the fact that you're likely posting this from a smartphone
I'm not. But I also have mentioned here that when my current smartphone dies, I won't be replacing it with another -- specifically because it's become so difficult to render them safe that it absorbs too much of my time and energy. That makes the cost/benefit of a smartphone too unfavorable for my tastes.
But with the smartphone I currently have, I do not use it for very much online stuff -- certainly not for web browsing -- anyway, because of safety concerns.
Why can't we just hold the opinion that HTTP and operating an automobile are two separate things entirely?
I've been driving for 20 years without web crap and I've never sensed the need to share telemetry with anyone during that process.
I guess because people want to listen to Spotify while they drive and have navigation data fed to their HUD...
100% agree. WTF. I'm losing a bit of faith recently in HN, a significant number of people seem to have gone full tinfoil hat.
1. Your comment was kind of a "me too" comment that added nothing (or little) of substance to the conversation. On HN these types of comments are typically downvoted, regardless of topic or whether the voter is wearing a tinfoil hat.
2. You complained about the downvoting, and in addition added a personal insult to the downvoters. Personal insults are typically downvoted on HN as well.
3. You dismissed and strawmanned the "entire discussion" as "mostly people ranting about things we don't even know to be true." This type of thing is also frequently downvoted as it doesn't add anything substantive.
I recognize your username from this thread, you were one of the accounts that came to mind as a big bandwagon offender of the "it's all bad and there can be no nuance" rhetoric :).
Have a good day! And I mean that quite sincerely. It's a beautiful spring day here and I'm just visiting my desk momentarily after spending the last hour waking up the swimming pool and preparing it for this weekend. Time to go back outside and forget about the Internet for a while.
Other than this reply, I've ceased posting in this discussion and hidden it to avoid the temptation.
Let me put it into perspective: making your Tesla (a heavy vehicle probably driving 1 person) drive more is not helping the environment.
If you want to help the environment, don't drive a Tesla, find something that burns less energy (like a smaller car, or public transports, or an electric bike).
Well you are winning on the fix cost of building the vehicle (obviously). But you are still moving people in a vehicle that weighs 2 tons. The fact that it is an EV does not mean that you use less energy to move that weight, does it?
So yeah, if someone decides not to buy a Tesla or equivalent because they can use your shared one, you are winning. Now if someone uses your Tesla instead of any lighter vehicle that would use less energy during its life than the Tesla (which represents a lot of vehicles, not only bikes and public transports), then you are losing.
So let me repeat this: if you buy a Tesla because you think it's a "green" move, then save your money. You should buy a Tesla because you want a cool, expensive, heavy sport vehicle. That's bad for the environment, but I guess that's the cost of being cool.
1) AFAIK Teslas cannot be driven remotely. But even if they could Tesla is not using cars for errands, like wtf c’mon. And if they wanted to do that and paid me for it, I might be interested in helping the environment.
2) Tesla is able to remotely unlock a vehicle if they verify the owner. This replaces a call to a locksmith and/or the towing company and is way more convenient. So yes, people are okay with being able to have their car remotely unlocked by a third party who they authorize, we always have been.