News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by crazygringo on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @10:50AM (#35701283)
I've always had problems with how complex numbers are taught.

The most common explanation is a geometric one, that of the "complex plane", that seems awfully analagous to any old 2D plane. But teachers never seem to explain why you'd have a complex plane in the first place, or when you'd use it instead of a regular plane, and you slowly realize that indeed, nobody's ever using it as a dimensional "plane" at all that's used for geometry or 2D coordinates or anything.

Then you progress into all the complex e^ functions where you basically forget about a plane, and it's just a convenient shorthand for math that would otherwise involve a bunch of trigonometric functions. But again, this never provides any actual intuition... it's just convenience. You could still write everything as sin() and cos() etc.

I finally felt like I understood complex numbers when I asked myself, how do you create a continuous solution to the function y(x) = (-1)^x? Because for x = [1, 2, 3, 4...], y = [-1, 1, -1, 1...]. But you can work out the math such that it necessarily produces a spiral through them. And it's different from the e^ equations because there's no pi involved.

And so rather than thinking of complex numbers as a "plane", it's much better to think of them simply as the inherently spiral motion required to continuously join alternating values. And when I look at how complex numbers are actually used in things with physical correlates -- e.g. signal processing -- the spiral intuition always continues to make sense.

Of course, at the end of the day, it's all the same math. But the idea of a continuous spiral path between otherwise discontinuous real numbers has wound up clicking for me in a way that the metaphors of a 2D plane, or of more generalized arbitrary "rotation", never has. That complex numbers are about spiral oscillation, not about planes.

Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by zuminator on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @12:02PM (#35702322)
You keep saying spiral but in a 2d spiral the value of |y| would be increasing as well. So if I'm understanding you correctly I think you mean helical? As in:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1b9122546ee68a13e259e...

Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by dbelford on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @12:47PM (#35703103)
The Heyser spiral or Heyser corkscrew seems to be a common name for this type of plot. https://www.google.com/search?q=heyser+spiral

And it connects circles, e/euler's formula, and sin/cos is a visually grokkable way.

Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by zuminator on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @01:08PM (#35703467)
Ah, well that's fair! In any case though "spiral" is a pretty general term; I'm really just trying to get a sense of the shape the op was referring to, assumedly not something like an Archimedean spiral. Thank you for that idenfication.
Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by knome on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @12:26PM (#35702696)
If you should be interested, 3Blue1Brown has a video primer on complex numbers that includes describing multiplications by i as rotations on the plane, showing why a plane is useful for its representation. I always enjoy videos from that channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PcpBw5Hbwo
Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by djsavvy on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @04:20PM (#35706174)
Back when I did olympiad math we would sometimes solve classical geometry problems with a "complex bash" --- you assign points complex coordinates and then do some algebra to show that the desired property must hold true.
Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by feoren on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @04:23PM (#35706233)
I find this "spiral" concept showing up in other cases as well, and I agree that it's under-rated (or under-studied) as a way to understand the complex numbers. By thinking about periodic points on a complex spiral, you can extend many useful properties of polynomials to those with rational coefficients. We can begin to talk about the roots of equations like x^(3/2) + x^(1/2) = 0 and we find results that very naturally extend from roots of similar "standard" polynomials. We can see that x^(1/2) = 0 has half as many roots as x^1 = 0, and x^(1/4) = 0 has half again as many roots, even if they all "project" down to 1 -- their periodicity on the spiral is 4pi and 8pi instead of the standard 2pi. I feel like there's a lot going on there that hasn't been explored.
Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by gowld on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @04:37PM (#35706425)
> Because for x = [1, 2, 3, 4...], y = [-1, 1, -1, 1...].

y = cos(pi * (x-1)). No complex numbers needed.

Yes, you can make a 3-D spiral / helix by mapping from R to C, but (a) that's only when your domain is R; ignoring when the domain is C.

The spiral doesn't help you with a simple task like solving this: 0 = x^2 +1

A helix is a time-based view of drawing a circle, in the plane.

Your favorite use of complex numbers isn't the only use of complex numbers.

https://brilliant.org/wiki/complex-numbers-in-geometry/

https://web.evanchen.cc/handouts/cmplx/en-cmplx.pdf

Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by User23 on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @07:31PM (#35708083)
Are you familiar with Visual Complex Analysis?

Your spiral motion intuition is really cool and complements the amplitwist model that book introduced me to nicely.

On a random tangent, one of the reasons why I love Common Lisp is that it has functions like CIS[1] in its library. That got me realizing you can literally view SIN and COS as CAR and CDR for what's essentially a cons of non-Complex numbers. I don't claim there's any benefit to doing so, but it's not wrong.

[1] http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_cis.htm

Re:Quantum Physics Falls Apart Without Imaginary Numbers by andrepd on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @06:55AM (#35711801)
i is a number defined to have i² = -1. Everything else follows from that. The complex plane arises naturally as a useful representation of complex numbers, it is not the starting point.

I do not understand at all that stuff about "spiral path between otherwise discontinuous real numbers", but I suspect you may be making things more complicated than they need.