> I realize there's a 99.9% chance this will cause some emotions, so I won't post any further.

Or maybe go the whole hog and just don’t post? I’m not religious but questions like this can only be asked in very specific circumstances without causing offence.

This a thread trying to wish a significant segment of the hn community a happy festival. Is now really the time to question their beliefs?

It's the same kind of question that gets asked of Christians and it's absolutely an attempt to cut into the faith. Trying to poke holes in religious texts is just obnoxious.

I'm not religious but subscribe to the attitude that we should just let people practice whatever faith they want so long as it doesn't impact upon the rights of those not of the same belief system. I.e. it's fine for Christians to hold other Christians to account, but not to impose their will on others.

This is of course something that a lot of religions struggle with, but it's a best effort thing. I think a lot of societies are starting to get that.

In any case, Happy Eid Mubarak to all that have been observing Ramadan (this will be my only post on this thread, so it's here or nowhere).

I mean I'm not going to go into it too much because there's a lot of reasons why something being divine doesn't mean it needs to spell everything out letter for letter, but I am going to invite comments because your "food for thought" is really just a veiled smirk at people who believe in a divine.

Most people who believe in a higher power aren't stupid and have already thought of your point for centuries before you

Ironic that you're preaching violence I think lol

I think that line is a paraphrase of something often attributed to Diderot. Since he lived in the 18th century, this falls into the "quaint tradition" category.

Diderot or not, the 18th Century French certainly knew how to treat their politicians when they went just a bit too despotic.

Chronologically, the first sentence of the Quran is "Read."

And, the Quran on dozens of occasions demands that people think and use their faculty of reason.

A message can be considered divine without it being completely patronizing

Why would something that only applies to probably 0.01% of humans be mentioned in a book made to be understood/followed by everyone? Especially when Islam always allows for exceptions based on good faith, reasonable terms and best effort. That's why you can eat pork if no other food is available, or drink alcohol for medical reasons (mostly surgery, back then). You are also allowed to not fast whenever you travel, so it's not like exceptions on fasting rules can't exist.

So with that framework, it is not needed to have every single little quirk documented. But it sometimes also requires islamic experts to confirm what would be reasonable and reassure those who haven't read or understood everything in the Quran. You really can't look at Islam as a completely rigid list of potential gotchas. And there's no equivalent of a clergy or a pope, so you have to think of those experts' interpretations as more of a "legal opinion" instead of religious or divine mandates.

(It's also why it is funny whenever I hear about people dunking bullets in pig blood or whatever when fighting against muslims, because they think that will send them to hell or something. As if intent isn't super important in Islam!)

"Now that I've condescended to you, I expect you to let that be the last word."

I'm not religious, but your comment ought to be engraved on a monument to pomposity.

Islamic tradition values reason and rationality. It doesn’t say to blindly follow stuff. You still have to reason through new situations. The Quran is more for spiritual guidance even though it has some prescriptions. But most of the "rules" come from hadiths or the prophetic tradition which has been passed down orally before it was compiled into books by famous scholars.

For example, the Quran says to pray but doesn't spell out how to pray. We learn how to pray from the hadith. Same thing with fasting. The Quran just says fast like Abraham fasted but it doesn't spell what that was. So we follow the way the Prophet did and he's human - he probably wasn't thinking how it would affect people in higher latitudes. He doesn't have supernatural powers or foresight. We say he's the best of us within human limits. Hence why there's a rich scholarly tradition to work these edge cases. It's also why we traditionally break our fast with dates because that's how the prophet did it. But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. There's nothing inheritly special about it. It's a staple food in the middle east so it's what he had access to. If the prophet lived in east Asia, then he probably would have broke his fast with rice and then that we would be the thing we break our fast with.

Also the Quran is not like other texts when it comes to structure. It was "revealed" (or authored for the non-religious) over a span of 20+ years and usually in response to something that happened. It's really more a dialogue between god and the prophet and his companions in response to events (someone is being mean or trying to kill them) or if they need guidance or reassurance on something. That's why sometimes taking verses literally is often wrong.

> But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary.

Of course it's not! It must be comfortable for farmers, and the farming season starts just now. I'm not a religious but I respect Islam as the most wise of religions, like an iPhone among other cell phones. I want to try fastening because I see some wisdom in having a month with feeding like that and I consider these days of year as totally not arbitrary.

I meant breaking your fast with dates is kinda arbitrary not the fasting itself. Fasting is very much not arbitrary and has a very special meaning since it's one of the few things we do solely for God and God alone. Also you can fast outside of Ramadan as well and get additional blessings from it. The prophet would routinely fast on Mondays for example. I think the only days you are not allowed to fast on is Eid because it's a time for celebration.

There's no rule that says you _have_ to break your fast with dates. We just do because that's how the prophet usually did it. Dates have no inherit religious significance. I eat them throughout the year because they are delicious and have nutritional benefits and there's some baraqah (wisdom) in things turning out this way.

Even when the prophet didn't have access to dates, he would break it with water or yogurt, or even just salt instead. Whatever he has access to at the time.