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Re:Google DeepMind by kmeisthax on Thursday April 20, 2023 @03:21PM (#35644889)
The difference between OpenAI and Google is that the latter's ethical concerns with AI are more deeply held. Google gave us the Stochastic Parrots paper[0] - effectively a very long argument as to why they shouldn't build their own ChatGPT. OpenAI uses ethics as a handwave to justify becoming a for-profit business selling access to proprietary models through an API, citing the ability to implement user-hostile antifeatures as a deliberate prosocial benefit.

To be clear, Google does use AI. They use it so heavily that they've designed four generations of training accelerators. All the fancy knowledge graph features used to keep you from clicking anything on the SERP are powered by large language models. The only thing they didn't do is turn Google Search into a chatbot, at least not until Microsoft and OpenAI one-upped them and Google felt competitive pressure to build what they thought was garbage.

And yes, Google's customers share that belief. Remember that when Google Bard gets a fact about exoplanets wrong, it's a scandal. When Bing tries to gaslight its users into thinking that time stopped at the same time GPT-4's training did, it's funny. Bing can afford to make mistakes that Google can't, because nobody uses Bing if they want good search results. They use Bing if they can't be arsed to change the defaults[1].

[0] Or at least they did, then they fired the woman who wrote it

[1] And yes that is why Microsoft really pushes Bing and Edge hard in Windows.

Re:Google DeepMind by neel8986 on Thursday April 20, 2023 @03:50PM (#35645322)
>> To be clear, Google does use AI. They use it so heavily that they've designed four generations of training accelerators.

This +100 Somehow there is a perception that chat bots are the only example of AI research or product that matters and all AI organisations ability will be judged by their ability to create chatbots.

Re:Google DeepMind by visarga on Thursday April 20, 2023 @04:38PM (#35645944)
If you haven't noticed, LLMs are the end-game for almost all NLP and CV tasks. You can freely specify the task, input and output formats, unlike discriminative models. You don't need to retrain, don't need many examples, and most importantly - it works on task the developers of the LLM were not aware at design time - developer aware generalisation.
Re:Google DeepMind by binkHN on Thursday April 20, 2023 @04:01PM (#35645458)
> ...nobody uses Bing if they want good search results.

Sadly, I think I'd argue that nobody has good search results anymore. Google's results have been SEO'd to the hilt and most of the results are blog spam garbage nowadays.

Re:Google DeepMind by tarsinge on Thursday April 20, 2023 @04:25PM (#35645803)
It was not some anecdotal fact that Bard got wrong, it was during their official public demo. It was a "scandal" because it showed Google was indeed unprepared and had no better product, not even preparing and fact checking their demo before was the cherry on the top.

Ethics is a false excuse because rushing that out show they never cared either. It was just PR and their bluff was called.

Also I skimmed over that Stochastic Paper and I’m unimpressed. I’m unfamiliar with the subject but many points seems unproven/political rather than scientific, with a fixation on training data instead of studying the emerging properties and many opinions notably regarding social activism, but maybe it was already discussed here on HN. Edit: found here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34382901

Re:Google DeepMind by actionfromafar on Thursday April 20, 2023 @07:05PM (#35647731)
Google and ethics, now that’s an oxymoron
Re:Google DeepMind by kmeisthax on Friday April 21, 2023 @09:53AM (#35653767)
> I’m unfamiliar with the subject but many points seems unproven/political rather than scientific

You're exactly the kind of person Stochastic Parrots was trying to warn us about - you bought into the AI hype.

AI are extremely sensitive to the initial statistical conditions of their dataset. A good example of this is image regurgitation in diffusion models: if you include the same image n times in the data set, it gets n times the number of training epochs, and is far more likely to be memorized. Stable Diffusion's propensity to draw bad copies of the Getty Images logo is another example; there's so many watermarks and signatures in the training data that learning how to draw them measurably reduces loss. In my own AI training adventures[0], the image generator I trained loves to draw maps all the time, no matter what the prompt is, because Wikimedia Commons hosts an absolutely unconscionable number of them.

Stochastic Parrots is arguing that we can't effectively filter five terabytes[1] of training set text for every statistical bias. Since HN is allergic to social justice language, I'll put it in terms that are more politically correct here: gradient descent is vulnerable to Sybil attacks. Because you can only scrape content written by people who are online, the terminally online will decide what the model thinks, filtered through the underpaid moderators who are censoring your political opinions on TwitBook.

Of course, OpenAI will try anyway[2]. The best they've come up with is to use RLHF to deliberately encode a center-left bias into a language model that otherwise would be about as far-right as your average /pol/ user. This has helped ChatGPT avoid the fate of, say, Microsoft's Tay; but it is just sweeping the problem under the rug.

The other main prong of Stochastic Parrots is energy usage. The reason why OpenAI hasn't been outcompeted by actual open AI models is because it takes shittons of electricity and hardware to train these things. Stable Diffusion and BLOOM are the biggest open competitors to OpenAI, but they're being funded purely through burning venture capital. FOSS is sustainable because software development is cheap enough that people can do it as volunteer work. AI training is almost the opposite: extremely large capital costs that can only be recouped by the worst abuses of proprietary software.

[0] I am specifically trying to build a diffusion model trained purely on public domain images, called PD-Diffusion.

[1] No problem. We are Google. Five terabytes is so little that I've forgotten how to count that low.

[2] When filtering the dataset for DALL-E 2, OpenAI found that removing porn from the training set made the image generator's biases far worse. i.e. if you asked for a stock photo of a CEO, pre-filter DALL-E would give about 60% male, 40% female examples; post-filter DALL-E would only ever draw male CEOs.

Re:Google DeepMind by richardw on Thursday April 20, 2023 @06:20PM (#35647295)
OpenAI releasing imperfect products is exactly what they said they would do. We need society to understand what the state and risks are. The 6-month-wait shitstorm is what happens when society gets the merest glimmer of the potential. I applaud them for this, rather than focusing on protecting their brand.
Re:Google DeepMind by nullc on Thursday April 20, 2023 @06:52PM (#35647611)
> The only thing they didn't do is turn Google Search into a chatbot,

No, they turned google search into what it is now.

For me, trying google bard was an instant reminder of the change in behavior in google search from 15 years ago to today.

We used to have a search that you could give obscure flags to Linux commands and find their documentation or source code. Today we have a google search that often only tell you about how some kardashian or recent political drama is a sounds-alike with the technical term that you were searching for.

GPT4 has some of the same "excessively smart" failure modes, but it (and GPT3.5 for that matter) is so much more useful than bard (which hits the user with "I can't do that dave" 100x more often than chatgpt's already excessive behavior) that they're a useful addition to the toolbox. Too bad the toolbox hardly includes plain search anymore.