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Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by ericpauley on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:54PM (#35596017)
This seems especially pertinent in New York TRACON. During busy times controllers there can be sending or receiving virtually nonstop; it's difficult enough even listening for your callsign and getting a word in edgewise.
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by markdown on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:26PM (#35596230)
Seems like a job a computer can do better. How soon before a corporation with "ai" takes over this role?
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by hgsgm on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:37PM (#35596284)
The AI should be assisting the human ATCs by putting useful info on screen in order.
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by j16sdiz on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:09PM (#35596470)
They tried —- it didn’t work well.

It is hard to determine what is “useful” or “important”. In case of emergency or chaos, moving info around brings confusions.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by refulgentis on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:51PM (#35596358)
Ahhh HN
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by GalenErso on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:58PM (#35596398)
You deserve more upvotes than you're getting, because your question is a fair one, and knowledge that may be obvious to some is going to be totally new to others. Some people would do well to remember that new people are constantly being born, and each person must learn everything from the start. I'm going to copy and paste a few answers from this 6 year old Reddit thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/5xqkxc/e...

> Air traffic controllers think on the fly more than you would assume. They look at their radar scopes and plan each target to work with others by working their speed, altitude, and path. Computers could probably work out these, but then how would they relay that information to pilots?

> Another thing to think about is the vast number of VFR aircraft who are not on a flight plan going A to B. ATC is able to communicate with them, learn their intentions "we saw something neat and would like to orbit here for 5 minutes", and help them see and avoid other aircraft.

> The fact that they are humans who you can talk to is tremendously helpful in emergencies as well. If I'm fighting a sick airplane I might not have the time or focus to find the nearest suitable airport, get weather information and important notices, and plan a descent. A controller watching over me sure can though.

Humans are flexible in a way computers can't be yet.

-----

> All aviation-related technology is tightly regulated and goes through an immense amount of testing and consideration before use.

> All of the obstacles we have around self-driving cars-- "whose fault is it if it crashes", "how do we know it's safe enough before letting it on the road", "do you still need a licensed driver", etc-- are 10x more problematic in the sky. It isn't necessarily harder to automate, but is harder to declare "officially safe enough".

It's not enough for an automated ATC to be somewhat good or decent. There is little margin for error when the consequences of such an error could be the death of hundreds of people and the loss of a multimillion dollar plane. ATC in real life is much more difficult than it appears to casual observers.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by cardboardbach on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:16PM (#35596501)
It's not enough for an automated ATC to be somewhat good or decent.

It just has to be as good as a human, and GPT-4 is already smarter than most humans.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by bobthepanda on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:21PM (#35596522)
It may be smarter than the average human, but probably not smarter than trained humans specialized in ATC, at this particular time.

ATC in particular depends on exact phrasing, in issuing commands, acknowledgement, and repetition back, so GPT’s ability to fudge something nice sounding is actually pretty bad.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by flangola7 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:49PM (#35596667)
GPT-4 fine tuned on ATC data could be highly effective
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by bobthepanda on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:56PM (#35596699)
ATC operation is not a search problem or an output generation problem, which is what GPT is primarily solving. It's the knapsack problem with a very complicated knapsack.
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by flangola7 on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @02:18AM (#35610554)
I don't know what knapsacks have to do with LLMs. I didn't say anything about search or output generation, nor did I say those are the only things transformer models can solve.
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by walterbell on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:25PM (#35596547)
> smarter than most humans

In some pre-defined contexts.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by refulgentis on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:17PM (#35596507)
This guys being too nice which leaves the door open to low effort replies: OP wasn’t even downvoted, and you have to watch about 10 min of air traffic videos on YouTube to understand. And I’m high on the GPT supply
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by jillesvangurp on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:47AM (#35597211)
It's a matter of decades of tradition. They'd have to change the way this stuff works for this to work properly. If you think about it, 99% of ATC exchanges are entirely routine exchanges of very basic information. Requesting and answering such basic questions as: Who the hell are you, what type of airplane are you flying, what are your intentions, change course to X, altitude to Y, altimeter settings, etc. And that's before we start talking about more complicated approach and departure proceedings.

Essentially all of that can be changed to exchanging information digitally and automatically. In fact most of that information exists digitally. It's not a technical challenge to do that. There are many ways to make this happen. The challenge is entirely institutional because it would represent massive changes to an industry that resists all form of change for decades on end. And that's for good reason: safety. But it also means that a lot of very flaky technology keeps on getting used and that pilots are task saturated with a ridiculous amount of work during safety critical portions of flight. When they get behind on their tasks, dangerous situations happen. When they stop practicing, they lose the ability to stay on top of things. It's that hard. And their pilot license shortly after (currency is not optional).

If you'd design the procedures and communication from scratch using modern tools, you'd end up with a very different system than what we have today. The fun thing indeed is that with modern AI, what might happen instead is that we end up with AI assisted ATCs and pilots delegating the ritualistic exchange of information via VHF radios to AIs. They could just send each other digital messages instead that are then processed automatically and acknowledged manually when needed. But on the off chance of one of the pilots or atcs still being stuck in the nineteen sixties, it's going to be easier to pretend that everyone is and have AIs imitate human actors participating in this.

So, text to speech and speech to text on both ends combined with an AI that has enough contextual information to take simple decisions and control systems escalating to pilots and controllers only when needed to might be more doable than coming up with a new system. I'd say chat gpt 4 would be well up for a "pretend you are an ATC controller" type role playing session.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by astonex on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:33AM (#35597432)
There does already exist a system for ATC to send info to Pilots via text. Particularly used when in heavy-traffic areas to limit the amount of voice communication.

CPDLC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_...

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by eesmith on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:58AM (#35597547)
If I read the page correctly - and I am NOT knowledgeable about the topic - the CPDLC is not used for approach control, which is the issue in NYC and DC. The example uses given are oceanic routes and above FL195 or FL285. It mentions "continuous descent approaches" as a future possibility.

Isn't approach one of those times where 1) you don't want the pilot distracted by more visual information (instead of audio), and 2) pilots listen to exchanges with other pilots to keep situational awareness?

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by catminou on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:44AM (#35597835)
Cpdlc is primarily used for oceanic clearances and follow ups (going off track due to weather, speed changes etc.).
Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by Out_of_Characte on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:24AM (#35597384)
I'm not sure how feasable AI or automation is. How would you respond to a failure in the automated system once there are more planes in the air than ATC controllers in that area? That could be a single point of failure. ATC Can optimise for severe degradation of service but how would automation be able to respond to a sometimes unavoidable impossible situation?

You can define rules how planes should and shouldn't fly, verifying that this is always possible would be a nightmare.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by jillesvangurp on Monday April 17, 2023 @04:31AM (#35598138)
Simple, just build in some escalation mechanism. Pilots should be able to get to talk to a human, and be listening in on the exchanges in case their attention is required. Of course, insisting on heavy handed, laborious, and error prone human exchanges all the time has its own risks.

ATC getting overloaded with more traffic is a given either way. Loads of electrical drones will start showing up in the next decades. Some piloted, some autonomous. ATC will have to adjust to that. And keeping everything the same with more human controllers is not going to scale.

Re:ATC staff shortages: 11,000 Flights Cut from NYC and DCA ... by jackweirdy on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:31AM (#35598915)
We have a way already to keep routine information off the radios - CPDLC - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_dat...

Entirely possible we could find more things to move there with humans