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Re:Killing Sparrows Led to Great Famines in China by 0xdeadfa65 on Friday April 14, 2023 @04:05PM (#35574008)
Again, what does owning slaves have to do with founding a country? Owning slaves was an unequivocal evil. It did not contribute anything good. I cannot make that clear enough. It is a net loss to their reputation for having owned slaves. If they did not own slaves, they would have been better people for it. Are we done with this point?

Apparently you do not understand Mao that well. You admitted that you don't read books about him because the authors supposed have an agenda. And supposed all biographers of Mao share this agenda? I have read one, remember? I listed one you said it was not reliable. Name a book I can read. Do it. Stop playing the "selective historiography" card you keep playing. Pick a book you think provides an honest account of this failed statesmen.

Please link the "World Bank China report on Socialist Economic Development Vol1 1983" so I can read it then.

"Mao massively overdelivered relative to peers with same/better/easier starting conditions" This is laughably wrong I don't even know where to start. I'm starting to think you will keep making excuses for this wreck of a man no matter what. He's responsible for more deaths than Hitler and somehow you worship the man. Again, what changes to the economy did he make that explains your line: "PRC compound overperforming under Deng due to base effect of PRC under Mao"

"Deng good meme is peak misunderstanding" Very weak argument. Calling something a meme does not dismiss it. Actually cite evidence.

"Deng's hard work was contingent on Mao doing the even harder work" I can't believe someone believes this. Again, cite evidence.

Deng was responsible for making market reforms that did not exist under Mao. Do you understand that? Are you claiming he did not do that? What is your argument. Besides dismissing Deng so easily, you have not provided any substantive argument against Deng being superior.

Are you just some Mao fanboy? Because if you are, then I am wasting my time. Ostensibly, you will not listen to reason since you are too busy worshiping a genocidal psychopath.

"small demerits" Lol. Tell me, what is a big demerit then? Is killing millions of Jews also a "small demerit?"

In the interest of fairness, I will naturally cite any provide for any argument I have argued here WITH evidence, something you have failed to do. Let me know so I can provide it and put this sorry discussion to rest.

Re:Killing Sparrows Led to Great Famines in China by dirtyid on Friday April 14, 2023 @08:09PM (#35576384)
Your reading comprehension needs work.

I said owning slaves and other vices don't matter much. I'm not disagreeing that personal vices are bad/net negative. I'm asserting they aren't weighed significantly when assessing significant historic leadership performance.

And lol where did I say I didn't read mao bios. Literally said "read many Mao bios". I'm familiar / read with many. They're simply bad narratives in light of data. Fact that you don't know WB report while latching on the "one" book you've read is reflection on poor understanding of subject matter. Go dig it up WB report at your reference library. I've quoted actual credible data on Mao's performance, which again are pre Deng indicators where under Mao policies in aggregate massively out performs relevant peers. With actual numbers in reply that you pretend do not exist. I've explicitly highlighted level of industrialization and life expectancy. Again, pre Deng because I know how time works.

Deng's market reforms not possible without Mao's industrial/cultural reforms. Without Mao whipping up industrial base first and people into common national identity Deng would not have appropriate human capita to harness. They build off each other. Their policies work in tandem, not one superior to other. That's the argument that Mao bad Deng good memes miss. See India who couldn't violently reform traditions spinning wheels while PRC exploded. Or most other developing countries stuck in internecine nightmares because leadership couldn't do hard things to jump start conditions for growth.

And yes killing fuckload of people is pretty much small demerit with respect to human history, especially China's. Big demerit is Mao losing Mongolia. Stuff that reverberates throughout time, not fungible bodies replaced within a generation.

And no, not Mao fanboy. Just someone actually familiar with PRC development history and agrees with 30/70 assessment. Learn to read better and find data, i.e. actual economic / HDI indicators of appropriate time period to show Mao's PRC underperformed relative to peers and we'll talk.