I never thought the issue was violent crime. More like the constant low-level theft and public urination from the homeless, drug addicts, and mentally ill.

I don't understand why Miami is ln your list. It seems clean and thriving.

According to Wikipedia, Miami has nearly twice the murder rate of San Francisco, and more than three times the rate of New York City: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...

11.23 per 100K. Tusla has a higher murder rate. You're about as likely to die in an automobile crash nation wide (11.1 per 100K), and in Florida, more likely (15.4 per 100K).

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7126a1.htm

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state...

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. We're all afraid of all the wrong things.

Assuming you mean Tulsa, OK, rather than Tuzla, BH.

Ah, indeed. I had to read your comment several times before I finally realized my typo.

I was nearly shot by a gang in Miami for parking in front of the wrong house with a white panel van with tinted windows. Never had such an experience in any other US city. I managed to get away after a five minute high speed chase on city streets. Cops were nowhere in sight at any point and time was of the essence so calling 911 was not an option.

IMO miami is a highly class segregated area. You really don't see the working class areas while there visiting or on vacation unless you go out of your way to see them.

Because I recently visited and two people were murdered in quick succession during spring break. They shut down Miami beach last year, due to back to back days of people shooting into crowds. In general, it just seemed wild and crazy.

I really don't understand what you're talking about.

Are the incidents you witnessed the common case, or outliers? That kinda makes all the difference.

A great read on that very topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_of_the_Witch:_Enchantme...

The crap? I grew up in Miami. It's a lovely city, not "an undesirable place that washed up people ended up, riddled with crime and violence." FFS.

It's all about whatever world view or narrative makes us feel emotionally comfy these days. Calling Detroit, Baltimore and Miami war zones makes a lot of people out there feel emotionally comfortable. (And also illustrates how many of us are, fortunately, completely unfamiliar with actual war zones.)

I wouldn't put too much weight in those kinds of comments.

I get where you're coming from. However, my opinion was based on physically being there back to back years when there were multiple shootings in public places (though not at the actual shootings). That and the fact that it was extremely violent in the 80s.

This isn't just some media driven hysteria.

I'm sure it has nice spots and you can make a good life for yourself. However, I can assure you that historically, it's exactly that (though maybe not undesirable)

I spent nearly 25 years of my life there and still have family that live throughout Miami-Dade Country, but sure... go on. Give me a break.

Since the victim lived in Miami most recently, a lot of people writing about this case commented about crime statistics and it seemed to me that based on the data, Miami is a more dangerous place than San Francisco, with more murder, rape, assault, etc.

I think where to draw the line is this "undesirable place" business. That's highly subjective, judgemental, and can cause you to lose sight of a lot.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there: "undesirable place" can come from a lot of reasons. Sure, I think SF has become more undesirable due to the increase in visible homeless population (visibility most driven by the mentally ill and addicted, as well as the tent encampments), as well has rampant visible drug use.

But I think the belief/feelings that this translates to much worse crime is just not correct. I can sympathize and agree with the idea that homeless and drug problems makes SF less desirable, but I don't think it moves the needle that much on safety and crime.

It's interesting that you say that, because I had no knowledge of the relation to Miami (it's tough to tell what you meant by that comment).

The only reason I said this, is because I was there for Miami Music Week, and they had multiple shootings two years in a row. It also has a bit of a reputation from the "cocaine cowboys" years. Honestly, the city had a bit of a "feel" to it, but it also seemed to have a great amount of character.

I'm not really passing judgement myself. I live in a place that many people would call "undesirable", and it does hurt... it's also not really fair, because it's a beautiful city with rich culture heritage, and continuing culture.

However, we have lots of shootings here too, and I understand why people are a little apprehensive.

you might be thinking of the pervasive non-violent crimes like people doing drugs in the bustling business and shopping districts and shitting right on the sidewalk in the same. it's long been infamous for that.

Maybe Bayview / Hunter’s Point / Sunnydale. But SF has never been a dangerous place. Not like Oakland or Richmond. Crime was much higher everywhere in the 80s and 90s.

SF's population declined between 1950 and 1980, and it's homicide rate between roughly 1970 and the mid-1990s was up to 2 or 3 times what it is now.