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Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by rtpg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:58PM (#35534145)
> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this.

My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs.

I think there is an idea to do something like this anyways, but it legit feels like something that needs to happen out of the goodness of your heart because you _are_ just leaving money on the table.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by Teever on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:25PM (#35534327)
Yeah but didn't they make a lot of money from support contracts before bullshit DRM? So isn't the difference between making a lot of money and a lot more emoney with DRM?

And if that's the case can't a defector break from the DRM paradigm and offer tractors without DRM so they still make a lot of money at a minimum, but likely more due to picking up more customers?

Like to put it in other terms can't they make up for the difference with increased volume, which drives down per unit production costs and takes money from John Deere?

Like why can't someone be the Kirkland brand of tractors?

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by Kalium on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:13PM (#35534592)
Tractors are durable goods. They are not replaced often. Becoming the Kirkland brand of tractors means taking a major hit to sales for years in the hopes that it comes back to you in decades. It means betting the entire tractor business on this, essentially.

You'll notice there are no Kirkland brand furnaces.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by makeitdouble on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:17PM (#35534624)
Knowing nothing about tractors, but there always was a strong push from vendors to not allow repairs by the user.

In the olden days it would be weird shaped screws and stickers with "warranty void" kind of bright red wording everywhere that would impact their bottom line. Then potential denial of repair or extra costs ("out of warranty") if they could find any plausible reason to attribute the issue to your intervention where you shouldn't touch.

I'd see the introduction of DRM as a way to enforce rules that were already there, more than a radical change to their business model.

So yes, I'd expect a lot of resistance to moving to right of repair.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @12:52AM (#35535161)
> I'd see the introduction of DRM as a way to enforce rules that were already there, more than a radical change to their business model.

Voiding a warranty for DIY repairs is very different from making DIY repairs impossible.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by crabmusket on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:51PM (#35534805)
Without knowing about the industry, I like to wistfully think that a cooperative would be the way to structure a company that cares about this. Not just worker-owned, but customer-owned as well. If you're buying an asset you expect to last decades, having a stake in the manufacturer doesn't seem like a completely bad idea.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by cobertos on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @12:34AM (#35535047)
The problem with any cooperative feels like a human one. Keeping everyone informed and active communicants. People like to forget about things when they're stable.

A coop loses so much value when it just becomes a one email a year affair with "Hey, it's that time to vote for things again!"

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by einpoklum on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:14AM (#35536454)
This is a problem in every social/political organization which is not ruled by interested minorities. So, co-operatives, voluntary social activity clubs, democratic NGOs/associations, professional societies, etc. Democratic states suffer from this also, although it's arguable whether they're not ruled by interested minorities to begin with. In fact, the unfortunate public-opinion manipulations we see in national and international politics are also often present in smaller, local organizations, albeit in less-well-funded and less-spectacular form.

I'm always reminded of the Anarchist Peasants:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by crabmusket on Thursday April 13, 2023 @11:44PM (#35565286)
Agreed, but from a distance it sounds like farm machinery might be something that keeps interest and involvement, as it's so critical to operations.

I'm somewhat influenced by the descriptions of various farming organisations in Seeing Like A State which I recently read. There is a lot of active cooperation, experimentation, knowledge sharing etc. around crop varieties.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by chongli on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @01:40AM (#35535456)
It’s very difficult to start a worker cooperative in a capital-intensive industry. In most companies, the difference between workers and owners is that the owners provided the capital to get things started.

A factory that builds modern tractors is a pretty huge investment. It’s very large and has a ton of very expensive robotics. It also has a huge supply chain that delivers a wide variety of parts to the factory for final assembly.

A factory worker, while a lot more skilled than a day labourer working on a farm, does not have access to the kind of capital needed to start a big factory. So how does it happen? The people who have the billions of dollars in capital needed to start the factory aren’t just going to give shares to workers they hire.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by heywhatupboys on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @01:47AM (#35535502)
> It’s very difficult to start a worker cooperative in a capital-intensive industry

some of the most successful Danish agricultural companies started out as / are cooperatives.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by chongli on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:04AM (#35535592)
Very difficult but not impossible. Looks like some of those co-ops go back to the 1700s.

So that provides one possible solution to the problem: start small with no capital and grow over a period of centuries to become a large co-op.

But how do you achieve it today? How do you take a bunch of workers and start a co-op factory that can compete with John Deere?

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by jezovuk on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:21AM (#35535691)
Credit/VC? Or you start a co-op dairy / farm / repair shop and work for centuries towards arriving at where JD is today (by which time big corps would have moved a few centuries ahead).
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by chongli on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:55AM (#35535909)
Credit is probably the only way. But I don’t see regular banks jumping at the chance to invest in worker co-ops. Maybe a credit union?

VC doesn’t work. Investors want equity for their money.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by zamnos on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @03:35AM (#35536189)
VC works plenty well. It's a business deal. 100% of a $0 business is $0, so in exchange for enough money to jump start the business that you don't have the funding for, you give up some equity so that in the eventuality that you're successful supplanting John Deere, your investors get paid out. That's how the system works.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by chongli on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:14AM (#35536448)
No, it doesn't work. If you let VC invest then you cease to be a worker co-op, you become a regular business.

Worker co-ops have only one class of member: worker-owners. People who do both the day-to-day work and are part owners of the business. Unless the VC people are willing to show up and start punching the clock like everybody else, they are a different class: owners who don't work. Worker co-ops disallow that class of membership by definition.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by zamnos on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @03:57PM (#35545853)
So select for investors who can stomach a specified return, so the company doesn't have to IPO, but can instead buy them out. After the coop is able to generate revenue to and is able to buy out the initial investor's initial investment, and give them a return between 10 and 100x, it reverts to being a traditional coop.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by midoridensha on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:23AM (#35536536)
So the solution is to invent a time machine, and go back in time to the days before factories (or internal combustion engines) were invented and stuff was manufactured (with "man" coming from Latin for "hand") by hand in cottages, and start your co-op then.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by heywhatupboys on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @03:35PM (#35545499)
no, the point is they built their own diary factories
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by thomasjb on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @08:01AM (#35538273)
I was under the impression that tractor manufacturing was down to bolting together bought in components at this point, such as the various Turkish Perkins engine + ZF gearbox + Carrero front axle + random cab companies cab, with a bit of fabrication to make parts to hold it together. A coop building a highly repairable tractor could make this their value proposition by publishing the diagrams for the fabricated parts, and the full list of parts they bought. There's little reason that a fairly normal fabrication shop couldn't be making tractors, and making them competitively with mainline manufacturers
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by baremetal on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @08:21AM (#35538478)
> There's little reason that a fairly normal fabrication shop couldn't be making tractors, and making them competitively with mainline manufacturers

Economies of scale.

We don't live in a fantasy land where things work a certain way just because it would be nice if they did.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @10:34AM (#35540413)
To add to that: if I'm purchasing a hugely expensive piece of capital equipment that my business depends on, it's nice that I can repair it myself when I have downtime, but if I need it up and running tomorrow, it's probably worth it to bring in the repair tech who does it day in, day out and can get it done a lot faster than me.

That local fab shop would now have to provide 24-hour on-call service, which is a completely different business.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by baremetal on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @01:30PM (#35543458)
> it's probably worth it to bring in the repair tech who does it day in, day out and can get it done a lot faster than me.

Indeed, and that is cheaper than keeping a guy on staff that can fix your equipment.

The biggest farmers I know keep someone on staff. The next tier down use outside repair services. And the smallest guys (I am a small time farmer, emphasis on small) repair their own stuff.

So in the context of myself and my own needs right to repair is crucial. But I can argue for the right to repair in general as well: Flexibility is key, in light of creaky supply chains.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by redeeman on Thursday April 13, 2023 @07:27PM (#35563565)
no, there are loads of mechanics anywhere that will happily work on things, they are simply prevented from working on many aspects of modern vehicles because it is made impossible by the manufacturers
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by rtpg on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @01:40AM (#35535457)
The real pie in the sky stuff is figuring out open designs that are durable but not so complex as to be totally out of reach.

I cannot claim to know the relative difficulty of such a task, or relevant regulations. But if there were some standard designs that multiple manufacturers were involved in, I bet parts would stay in production for a very very long time.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by lb1lf on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:49AM (#35535881)
-This is very much my (anecdotal, but from several companies in the subsea business, ranging from huge multinationals to small fry almost mom-and-pop shops) experience, too: Service work is basically seen as a licence to print money.

Contract negotiations for newbuilds are cutthroat, the most important parameter being price, price and price. Hence margins are as you'd expect.

Except when it comes to service work, as service rates, parts cost &c are hardly ever touched upon in contracts, probably seeing as they will be relevant for the lifetime of the product, which may run for decades.

Hence the contract merely states that the supplier must _provide_ service and parts. Which we do. While we laugh all the way to the bank.

Of course, if you become too greedy, a customer is likely to start sourcing any parts not uniquely made by you elsewhere and try to have whoever they can find locally install them. Hence some sobriety is useful when determining service rates and parts markup, but the general principle is:

You do newbuilds so that you can get a large installed base to reap service income from. Newbuilds are sold at the slimmest of margins, sometimes even at a loss. You'll recoup it when they start using the gear, anyway.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by GordonS on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:20AM (#35536503)
I also worked with subsea companies for a long time, and can concur - they'd do anything to get new engineering and manufacturing contracts, then make the margins later on aftermarket service. It wasn't a secret either, people were quite open about it.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by lb1lf on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:55AM (#35536752)
Oh, it is no secret, I believe everyone lives well with this approach - it is a tacit understanding, I think. Customers work hard to bring initial cost down as far as possible, even bringing up in contract negotiations that 'Hell, you'll make this back in service, anyway!' - seeing as when said is said, done is done, the equipment is installed and doing its thing - having downtime is so expensive that no matter what our service rates are, it is money well spent.

Anecdotally, I once was in Rio de Janeiro just wrapping up some service work on a vessel in the Guanabara bay (Fine-tuning a number of variable frequency drives had puzzled one of our FSEs no end, so I was called out from engineering to see if I could make it work out).

Anyway, a service request came in from a vessel also in the bay; rather than waiting for the home office to wake up and process it, I asked the crew on the ship I was departing from to simply zip me over to the vessel in question; less than fifteen minutes after they had reached out for help, I was on board and started looking into it.

They insisted on paying the $5,000-ish fee we usually charge to send someone from Norway to Brazil, despite my being just half a mile away - as they had expected it to be at least two days before someone could arrive; instead, they were back on-hire again in less than two _hours_.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by GordonS on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @08:46AM (#35538759)
> I once was in Rio de Janeiro

> They insisted on paying the $5,000-ish fee we usually charge to send someone from Norway to Brazil

You work for Aker/Kvaerner, by chance? :)

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by lb1lf on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @08:53AM (#35538846)
> You work for Aker/Kvaerner, by chance? :)

Oh, heavens, no!

I used to work for Rolls-Royce Marine, but have since jumped ship (or walked the plank!) and now work for a smaller, independent company manufacturing all sorts of offshore handling equipment.

I am of the firm opinion that life is too short for working at large corporations. Obviously, YMMV.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @10:30AM (#35540340)
The "break-even on initial install, make profit on recurring revenue" model is common in a lot of industries.

I've worked for engineering service companies where they'll take on a design at minimal profit, in order to secure the manufacturing contract that's worth far more. Or a medical device company that would provide the instrument (normally sold for around $750k) at cost, in exchange for a lucrative supplies & consumables contract that would be needed for over a decade of operation.

I honestly think there's more money to be made in services, generally speaking, than in manufacturing.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by OkGoDoIt on Friday April 14, 2023 @12:27PM (#35571389)
Sounds like printers to me. It’s harder and harder to find one where you can replace your own ink.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by dheera on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @03:19AM (#35536068)
> feels like something that needs to happen out of the goodness of your heart because you _are_ just leaving money on the table.

Which means you need to get it off the ground without the help of the stock market or investors, all of which are greedy for that money on the table.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by rgmerk on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:47AM (#35536700)
Back in the day, Dad ran a photocopier dealership.

He had a team of highly-paid salesmen (and they were pretty much all men) driving around the countryside convincing school principals and the like that they needed new photocopiers.

The profit margin on the machines was basically zero.

But the salespeople earned their keep, because every large photocopier sold also had a service contract that charged a fee for every copy made.

The game was up by the early 2000s when the stand-alone photocopier was replaced with networked laser printers, but while it lasted it paid for a lot of salespeople’s fancy cars, boats, and overseas holidays.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by mschuster91 on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @05:08AM (#35536845)
> But the salespeople earned their keep, because every large photocopier sold also had a service contract that charged a fee for every copy made.

And without the service contracts, schools are fucked when the printer breaks down. Like, here in Germany, a single copier can run through entire crates worth of paper in a day.

It's absolutely ridiculous how fossilized our education system has become. We should be using laptops and tablets loaded with e-books and digital worksheets. No one cares about handwriting anything outside of school any more.

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by mistrial9 on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:08PM (#35544113)
no - laptops and tablets with e-books break the attention span of students from minutes into only seconds.. Humans are able to see things that change constantly, but there is a cost. Secondly, abundance past a certain level creates apathy and overwhelm. Third, there is a realization that giving any screens to children below a certain age is just basically harmful to regular brain development.
Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by Dennip on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @05:05AM (#35536826)
its why they're spinning up the big bud again!

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/03/20/big-bud-worlds-large...

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by yencabulator on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:46PM (#35544740)
Wow.

> The Big Bud 747 weighs in at 135,000 pounds fully ballasted and its 1,000-gallon fuel tank topped off.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=E...

That's a >$3,200 fill-up (give or take volume pricing, with your own larger container). And I thought driving a class A motorhome with a 150 gallon tank hurt to fill up!

Re:Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair by KevinBasto on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:13PM (#35544195)
well, certainly a customer that feels screwed will hate to bring you money, so even if you can force someone to get customer support from you will hate you, and eventually when they can get out, they will, no company is exempted from this reality, people like to feel companies care about them and their product or service makes their lifes easier, else they fly away, but i think those who push this shitty ideas are more likely directives born in rich environments, they don't understand the customer and try to optimize to cut corners instead of trying to be relevant on the market, or shall we say, they rest on their laurels