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Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by yarg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:11AM (#35524626)
> Reform the leadership. It’s time for Richard Stallman to go.

> We need more leaders of color, women, LGBTQ representation, and others besides.

Stallman is in many ways a problem - but the solution is finding technically and socially competent leadership with a vision that aligns with the core ideologies of the FSF and the ability to lay it out as a coherent long-term plan.

Forced diversity has not ever and will not ever make that sort of thing easier to achieve.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by bo1024 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:19AM (#35524734)
Technical and socially competent leadership is compatible -- actually, well-aligned -- with diverse representation.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by yarg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:27AM (#35524830)
There's a difference between organic and forced diversity.

When someone starts out with bullet-point one devoted to orthogonal social issues and not the actual goals of the foundation and how to reach them, it's fairly clear where they stand.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by kmeisthax on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:16AM (#35525490)
"Orthogonal social issues?" So are we just going to pretend that unauditable, proprietary facial recognition software isn't being actively weaponized against minorities?

Like, cops using secret rules to determine guilt would be considered dystopian basically anywhere.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by yarg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:31AM (#35525704)
Yes, the issues are completely orthogonal to the effective operation of an open source software foundation.

If you want to have a talk about the also completely unrelated issue of facial recognition, we can do that too.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by kmeisthax on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:08AM (#35526226)
The facial recognition software issue is not orthogonal: the biggest problem with it is that it's proprietary software being used to do law enforcement. We don't know how Clearview's software works and it is already generating false arrests and convictions. If this is an orthogonal issue, than software freedom is just a petty tech squabble between programmers with no bearing on the average user, and nobody should care about it.

The way that you get the average user to care about software freedom is by drawing lines between it and seemingly unrelated issues. You don't say "proprietary software means you can't edit the code", you say "proprietary software means more surveillance tech everywhere". And the way that surveillance tech works is that it follows a very specific "shitty technology adoption curve"[0]. It will first be weaponized against socially acceptable targets such as criminals first, and then to social minorities that don't have the leverage to say 'no', and then to poor people at large, and so on and so forth up the chain of oppression.

Of course, because of how this adoption curve works, a foundation staffed entirely with old white guys isn't going to be inherently aware of these sorts of problems. They are going to be fighting them by accident, and losing out on a way to do effective outreach about the problem they want to solve.

[0] Thanks to Cory Doctorow for pointing this one out.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:50AM (#35526874)
All political campaigns against population work this way: censorship, privacy, four horsemen, gun control.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by t-3 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @12:55PM (#35527836)
If the facial recognition software was open source, it would still be used to facially recognize people. There's no guarantee the algorithms would be better, but even if they were, that wouldn't stop them from being applied in a biased fashion. There are no technical solutions to human governance and society, we need human solutions for those.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by yarg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:17PM (#35532382)
The algorithms are in trouble.

Black people have darker faces with generally softer features, women paint themselves with makeup and frequently leave the house looking less like themselves than other people.

The sorts of solutions that a prescribed - more diversity - do nothing to fix those issues.

Multi-perspective and multi-frame processing can be used to reconstruct 3D models of a well-lit individual, which has the potential to get around makeup induced false contouring.

Solving the issues of clowns and women - but how do you deal people who are genetically predisposed to being poorly lit?

Infrared's probably your best option, and it's already common place in security.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by yarg on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:06PM (#35532246)
The biggest problem is not that it's proprietary software - the biggest problem is that the software does not work as intended.

There are multiple factors that lead to the software not working - and none of them stem from the fact that it's proprietary.

(The Stallman notion that anything other than copyleft needs to be erased is fucking ridiculous - and I really don't think that you'll find traction with it on a site where almost everyone uses the profits from software to feed themselves and their families.)

There is a related notion that would have granted you some traction - that tax payer funded software should be open source.

This nicely parallels the issue of public access to publicly funded scientific research - which has gotten a lot of traction here, over time.

As far as rising authoritarianism is concerned, you've chosen a weird hill to die on.

The court is packed, and the already broken two party system is being gerrymandered into oblivion.

You're focusing on the tools being used without regard for the intention and the users.

Anyway, you didn't even get to the fun part of the conversation - that facial recognition struggles with black people and women.

Which is a fun little conversation that people like to politicise and blame on the people who wrote the code.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @11:37PM (#35550615)
> Yes, the issues are completely orthogonal to the effective operation of an open source software foundation.

Only if you begin by presuming diversity isn't a benefit on it's own.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by drewbug01 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:01PM (#35533782)
To be fair - the author didn't "start[s] out" with that statement. They started out with seven(ish) paragraphs explaining exactly why the FSF has become irrelevant and how the foundation cannot reach its goals.

The author contends that Stallman (and through his leadership, the FSF) ends up repelling the very kind of interconnected community that could sustain the free software movement. Thus, their first suggestion (replace Stallman, and include different kinds of people in future leadership) is directly related to that specific issue.

It's actually a rather nicely written piece, and they support their suggestions in the narrative pretty well. Perhaps you skipped ahead (or perhaps you just disagree, which is certainly your right), but they absolutely didn't "start out" with "orthogonal social issues". They made the case for why those issues matter and then connected them to their suggestions.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by ghusto on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:27AM (#35525642)
> Technical and socially competent leadership is compatible -- actually, well-aligned -- with diverse representation

Reality begs to differ.

If they're well aligned, where are these people? Have they been oppressed by not being given a chance? Let's see where we are in 20 years when that argument can finally be put to rest (when's the last time you saw a positive _male_ role model in films or other pop-culture, tech-related or otherwise?).

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by vrtx0 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:25AM (#35526459)
My perspective as an openly gay male with 20+ years of experience in software security, systems programming and distributed databases: Tech companies tend to be extremely supportive and welcoming of talent from diverse backgrounds. My proudest technical accomplishments have always been with a diverse group of peers, including straight white males who champion diversity. These people are heroes to me, but it’s not like they’re the type to gloat…

I’m not the best person to ask about movies, but most example of protagonist “hackers” that comes to mind include white males. Counter examples that come to mind are “The Web” (female), and Sens8 (transgender lead, helped by straight white male)…

That said, I may have misunderstood your point, but happy to correct it elaborate if I’m off base!

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by ghusto on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @12:55PM (#35527852)
Yes, you're way off base :D But it's a welcome miss, because I found your experience interesting anyway, and relevant.

My first point was that if it were true that "technical and social leadership" indeed was compatible and even "well-aligned", then why is it we don't see that in people in leadership positions? Where are they?

Then I pre-empted the tired argument that we don't see them because they've been oppressed for so long. I suggested that culture has been so "progressive" in recent years, that there are no longer any positive male role models (the over-compensating pendulum swing, in place of actual progress), so now that that's done, let's see what effect it has had on future society in 20 years, because we won't be able to blame "the patriarchy" or whatever any more.

Now having said all that, I'm super happy to hear that you've had a positive experience in diverse workplaces :) I'm old, and remember when being openly gay wasn't fun.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by vrtx0 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @02:45PM (#35529468)
Ah, interesting… I think the discrepancy is where we’re looking. FWIW, I started my career at AOL-Time Warner in Florida in the late ‘90s. Management was all “good ol’ boys”. Definitely no role models anywhere. (I was closeted at the time).

I’ve been fortunate in some ways, but nothing came easy to me. I didn’t come from money, didn’t graduate college, didn’t know anyone… I moved to LA just to escape that toxic environment, and found a good job developing embedded systems in 2 weeks. I’m an autodidact, so my only qualifications were a portfolio of projects, including an old TI DSP project and a pre-Wi-Fi embedded wireless device. Over the next ~15 years, I kept moving up in rank and salary, changed jobs a few times, received patents, contributed to papers, and was lucky enough to be mentored by some truly amazing people…

I’ve always felt success is a combination of hard work and luck, even for those “born into it”. If true, that likely means for everyone like me, there are a dozen or so who didn’t make it, or never took a chance.

And yeah, being gay still isn’t fun. Maybe it made it easier to take a chance moving 2600 miles from home though — I figured I’d be dead within a year if I stayed where I was…

Hope that doesn’t sound like some kind of humble brag; I’ve obviously had my share of failures and loss.. That said, given how lucky I feel at this point (I’m in my 40s), I couldn’t understand how you’ve never met a positive role model… But I do now, and it was naive of me to extrapolate my experience into the general population… And I’m not suggesting I worked harder or did anything to deserve my good fortune… FWIW, I’m really sorry you (and likely most people) haven’t known the same men and women I’ve been lucky enough to know…

Really hope that doesn’t sound like some arrogant humblebrag, or diminish your hard work!

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by ghusto on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @02:49AM (#35535884)
> I’ve always felt success is a combination of hard work and luck, even for those “born into it”.

Defo, but I'd tweak that a little and say they come hand in hand. The luck comes from hard work, or at least just going for it, it doesn't just magically land in your lap.

I have a similar background; grew up poor in a rough area, low expectations from my teachers due to my ethnicity, and thanks to my parents, worked through all that to become what most would call successful. The breaks came from opportunities, which came from putting myself out there.

It's a mistake to think people are lucky, because it implies things just happen to you. Nobody has it easy. Even those who are apparently patently lucky in that they have rich parents, are not lucky. The only thing worse than not having anything, is having everything.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by Shared404 on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @10:05AM (#35539866)
Justine Tunney, Mekka Okereke, Christine Lemmer-Webber.

Three off the top of my head.

I wonder why it is you wouldn't have run into any...

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @11:38PM (#35550624)
> when's the last time you saw a positive _male_ role model in films or other pop-culture, tech-related or otherwise?

Do we live in the same reality?

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by michaelmrose on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:03PM (#35534530)
Small groupings of people drawn from populations that are heavily weighted toward white male English speakers organically selected are unlikely to be more diverse than the population its drawn from and many groupings will end up distinctly unequal even without bias being involved.

If you imagine dealing out people like cards into stacks chosen randomly and enumerating the demographics of each stack then large stacks would tend towards the population demographics but many smaller stacks would have all sorts of distributions. The only way to ensure a small group is diverse or a large group isn't is to select them for immutable characteristics instead of skill.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by davexunit on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:13AM (#35525453)
Lots of talk about "forced diversity" that ignores the diverse pool of talented people that the FSF has pushed away because they don't think "GNU+Linux" is a hill worth dying on or whatever.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by rekado on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:07AM (#35526213)
It goes beyond just battles on mole hills: the FSF and the GNU mailing lists are full of extremely time-consuming discussions that are fueled by conspiratorial thinking, feature excessive celebration of nitpicking, with participants that regularly lose themselves in groan-worthy tangents, operate on oversimplified models of society with unjustified arrogance, etc --- they are really bad places for constructive discourse.

There are not many people who are both talented in their fields and have the surplus time and energy to exercise a saint-like restraint to deal with all the draining crap. This environment is the sediment that filters a lot of talent and successfully prevents healthy growth.

This does not necessarily apply to individual GNU packages, but the overarching "project" structure is rotten and resistant to any attempts at reform.

Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by davexunit on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:31AM (#35526548)
Thanks for following up with more details. You're absolutely right about all of it. After experiencing some/all of those things, most rational people realize there time is better spent elsewhere and move on.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by michaelmrose on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:06PM (#35534547)
Thanks that explains why their board is filled with drek like a treasurer with a degree in economics from Harvard and Gerald J. Sussman, Professor of Electrical Engineering at MIT.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by subsistence234 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:51PM (#35532771)
The FSF could really draw a bigger crowd if instead of something weird like free software it was instead about something everyone loves, like the newest Apple products.
Re:The Free Software Foundation is dying by rekado on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @11:18AM (#35541202)
What's the deal with this low-effort flame bait? Have you volunteered for the FSF? Are you or have you been active on the FSF or GNU mailing lists?

Certainly there are countless opportunities for reform away from elitist pedantry that are not tantamount to "being about the newest Apple products", wouldn't you agree?