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Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:23PM (#35495518)
Capitalism isn’t a fundamental law like the speed of light or thermodynamics.

We can use other systems that suit our goals better. Even if it’s a better form of capitalism than what we’re dealing with now.

This post-monetarist form of capitalism is killing people and this planet and enriching but a few. That’s not the kind of society most people want. A matter of time before there are enough have-nots and upheaval becomes a real problem for the capital owners.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by s__s on Saturday April 08, 2023 @01:41PM (#35495725)
Capitalism is too broad a term to be useful in these conversations.

At it’s core capitalism just means that private individuals can own property, instead of the state owning everything. Which is absolutely critical for a free society. It’s paramount that individuals not be dependant on a ruling class for survival.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:01PM (#35495939)
It’s absolutely not critical or essential for a free society.

It’s only essential for capital owners to maintain their wealth and power.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by JieJie on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:23PM (#35496128)
Markets are probably essential.

Ownership is a term that is loaded and the argument between socialism and capitalism is actually not really helpful.

For instance, if we removed the concept of capital and implemented socialism, there would still be a concept of "responsibility for". So if there were community bicycles, individuals would still have responsibility if they threw the bicycles in a lake. The community officially "owned" the bicycles, and the individual acted against the community's best interests.

Capitalism as written about by Adam Smith seeks to solve the same problem by putting the "ownership" in the hands of the individual, so that the individual is given incentive to care and maintain the bike.

These are both potentially-effective systems that seek to solve the problem of "who's responsible for this bicycle". There are trade-offs for each.

When we simplify complex market-based problems into choices between either capitalism or socialism, we have created nice ways to describe the problem, but neither of them serves as an effective solution to the problem.

For the solution, we have to dig deeper and that means not being beholden to ideologies that can prevent us from seeing good solutions.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by imtringued on Monday April 10, 2023 @04:21AM (#35510245)
The problem with ownership is that it isn't that easy.

With land people don't own the land itself they only have exclusive usage rights for a specific period of time. Once that time is over they are no longer responsible. Thus even with private ownership you still can have the tragedy of the commons problem, it is just divided over time instead of space.

The most common example is soil depletion from industrialized agriculture.

If you wanted to solve this problem you would need a regulatory body that inspects the quality of the soil and fines people who degrade it. Governance becomes essential to balance the micro and macro economy.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 08, 2023 @02:27PM (#35496164)
The concept of property has been warped to include the value of shares of a corporation, whose value is generated by the labor of its employees. This is the primary way the richest people steal wealth from labor.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by satvikpendem on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:05PM (#35496514)
Only if you believe in the Labor Theory of Value, which most don't. If I own a ship that's going on some expedition (as how shares originally started), I raise capital and reduce risk by issuing shares that people can buy. I have to, well, share my wealth but I have more money now to do the expedition. Corporations are just bigger versions of the same idea, they're still run by people, any of whom can decide not to work there anymore, for better or worse.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by cambaceres on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:11PM (#35496573)
What you and other students of Karl Marx always ignore is the fact that if company owners was not allowed to earn profit then there would be no companies founded, meaning that the workers would not have jobs.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:18PM (#35497195)
I think the idea is that the workers would profit from their labour and control what gets produced.

I’m not sure that means companies wouldn’t be started and everyone would sit around doing nothing.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by satvikpendem on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:56PM (#35497553)
They can do that, nothing stops people from setting up co-ops today, I've been in one as well in fact. But at the same time, if I'm making something lucrative, I'd want to profit from it. That other people I hire are willing to work for the wage I give them is their problem, since if they don't like the wage, they can always go elsewhere (given that they are skilled workers, not workers who can find no other job in some company town or something).
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by anticensor on Sunday April 09, 2023 @04:08AM (#35500834)
Your argument possesses a fundamental mistake that most venture capitalists make: that the demand is infinitely elastic but supply is completely fixed; in other words, the manufacturers being able to perfectly impose what consumers want to consume.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by satvikpendem on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:38AM (#35503119)
I don't see where I imply that supply is fixed. I don't think that makes sense even from a VC point of view, since the company they fund is itself another manufacturer or producer of goods, thereby increasing the supply.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 15, 2023 @08:56AM (#35580230)
> since if they don't like the wage, they can always go elsewhere

Capitalists are well known to collude to keep pay down and viciously suppress unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/24/306592297...

https://fortune.com/2023/03/02/nlrb-starbucks-union-buffalo-...

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:00AM (#35578608)
What you and other billionaire boot-lickers ignore is that earning $10 million from starting a company is very reasonable, "earning" $100 billion is just stealing from many thousands of employees. We really should NOT need a logarithmic scale when talking about wealth inequality.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:21PM (#35496667)
Except the labour theory of value is utter nonsense. It lead Marx to argue that railway workers, helping transport goods to where they were needed, contributed negative value and were parasitic on manufacturing labour.

Ideas, leadership and capital are vital to a functioning economy. Every time a system has been set up that denied that, and it has been tried many times, the results were catastrophic. In several cases tens of millions of people dead catastrophic.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Saturday April 08, 2023 @03:30PM (#35496742)
Indeed. Eventually the interests of capital owners force them to fail. Like when the CIA backed a military coup by a fascist general to overthrow a democratically elected socialist. Because US investments were threatened.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Saturday April 08, 2023 @04:31PM (#35497315)
No economic system can mitigate toxic politics. Regulatory or political capture by economic interests is always a threat. As is political seizure of economic assets or resources. These are human failings you find in any system. This is why rule of law is so important.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:41AM (#35503143)
And why the struggle must always continue!

A society doesn't simply implement socialism (or any system) and call it a utopia. There will always be forces and counter-forces. Fascism will continue to find a way back into any system it can.

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by simonh on Monday April 10, 2023 @03:54AM (#35510101)
We can both completely completely agree on both points. There are no magic wands that will solve corruption and rent seeking. These are both human flaws. I’m not even against a dose of socially managed resources and services where it makes sense. Cheers.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by agentultra on Monday April 10, 2023 @10:35AM (#35512836)
Cheers! Indeed a bit of planning can work, even in a mostly capitalist system. Take WalMart as an example. It's annual revenues dwarf the GDP of many small countries. And yet it is centrally managed, planned, and rather efficient!
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:03AM (#35578626)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

The Ludlow Massacre was a mass killing perpetrated by anti-striker militia during the Colorado Coalfield War. Soldiers from the Colorado National Guard and private guards employed by Colorado Fuel and Iron Company (CF&I) attacked a tent colony of roughly 1,200 striking coal miners and their families in Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914. Approximately 21 people, including miners' wives and children, were killed. John D. Rockefeller Jr., a part-owner of CF&I who had recently appeared before a United States congressional hearing on the strikes, was widely blamed for having orchestrated the massacre.[6][7]

The massacre was the seminal event of the 1913–1914 Colorado Coalfield War, which began with a general United Mine Workers of America strike against poor labor conditions in CF&I's southern Colorado coal mines.[8] The strike was organized by miners working for the Rocky Mountain Fuel Company and Victor-American Fuel Company. Ludlow was the deadliest single incident during the Colorado Coalfield War and spurred a ten-day period of heightened violence throughout Colorado. In retaliation for the massacre at Ludlow, bands of armed miners attacked dozens of anti-union establishments, destroying property and engaging in several skirmishes with the Colorado National Guard along a 225-mile (362 km) front from Trinidad to Louisville.[6] From the strike's beginning in September 1913 to intervention by federal soldiers under President Woodrow Wilson's orders on April 29, 1914, an estimated 69 to 199 people were killed during the strike. Historian Thomas G. Andrews has called it the "deadliest strike in the history of the United States."[2]: 1

The Ludlow Massacre was a watershed moment in American labor relations. Socialist historian Howard Zinn described it as "the culminating act of perhaps the most violent struggle between corporate power and laboring men in American history".[9] Congress responded to public outrage by directing the House Committee on Mines and Mining to investigate the events.[10] Its report, published in 1915, was influential in promoting child labor laws and an eight-hour work day. The Ludlow townsite and the adjacent location of the tent colony, 18 miles (29 km) northwest of Trinidad, Colorado, is now a ghost town. The massacre site is owned by the United Mine Workers of America, which erected a granite monument in memory of those who died that day.[11] The Ludlow tent colony site was designated a National Historic Landmark on January 16, 2009, and dedicated on June 28, 2009.[11] Subsequent investigations immediately following the massacre and modern archeological efforts largely support some of the strikers' accounts of the event.[12]

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by HyperSane on Saturday April 15, 2023 @04:02AM (#35578617)
Or like when capitalists machines gunned striking coal miners. Capitalists HATE IT when labor gets "uppity".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by kbelder on Sunday April 09, 2023 @01:19AM (#35500238)
Not like the speed of light, but similar to thermodynamics. It arises statistically from complexity.
Re:I wish GPT4 had never happened by goodluckchuck on Sunday April 09, 2023 @05:05PM (#35506463)
Capitalism is a fundamental law.

It’s inexorably true that means of production control the outputs.

It’s unavoidable that whoever has power over production has power over those who rely on those outputs.

Unless you’re advocating for the destruction of factories, the razing of homes, etc. you’re in favor of capital. We’re just discussing who is going to control the capital.