News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by roddylindsay on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @01:43PM (#35443346)
This is hardly an indefensible position. John Searle, for one, has argued this point for more than 40 years:

"Imagine a native English speaker who knows no Chinese locked in a room full of boxes of Chinese symbols (a data base) together with a book of instructions for manipulating the symbols (the program). Imagine that people outside the room send in other Chinese symbols which, unknown to the person in the room, are questions in Chinese (the input). And imagine that by following the instructions in the program the man in the room is able to pass out Chinese symbols which are correct answers to the questions (the output). The program enables the person in the room to pass the Turing Test for understanding Chinese but he does not understand a word of Chinese."

Later he wrote:

"I demonstrated years ago with the so-called Chinese Room Argument that the implementation of the computer program is not by itself sufficient for consciousness or intentionality (Searle 1980). Computation is defined purely formally or syntactically, whereas minds have actual mental or semantic contents, and we cannot get from syntactical to the semantic just by having the syntactical operations and nothing else. To put this point slightly more technically, the notion “same implemented program” defines an equivalence class that is specified independently of any specific physical realization. But such a specification necessarily leaves out the biologically specific powers of the brain to cause cognitive processes. A system, me, for example, would not acquire an understanding of Chinese just by going through the steps of a computer program that simulated the behavior of a Chinese speaker."

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by p_j_w on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @02:29PM (#35443998)
It doesn't sound to me like he's making the argument that you think he is. He's saying that being able to manipulate Chinese symbols per some instructions isn't sufficient to demonstrate understanding of Chinese. Okay, I agree. But seeing someone manipulate Chinese symbols doesn't mean that you can assume they're simply following instructions without understanding the symbols either, does it?
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by Loquebantur on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @02:03PM (#35443635)
That argument is laughably faulty.

It hides the conscious understanding, presumably necessary to pass a Turing test, within the "program".

The human in the story is merely a decoy performing robotic tasks.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by dale_glass on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @02:54PM (#35444334)
I propose an alternate thought experiment.

Let's suppose we build the Cosine room. The room is full of 10 year olds that haven't yet taken trig. Each performs the function of a transistor, and has no idea of what they're doing, other than blindly executing the instructions they were given. None of the participants has the slightest clue about what a cosine is. Yet, the output of the room will still be cos(x). Thus I think it's fair to say that the room as a whole implements cos(x).

In the same way, I don't see why wouldn't we conclude the room is speaking Chinese. It doesn't matter how it manages to do so and what it's made of. If it quacks like a Chinese duck, then it's a Chinese duck.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by bigtex88 on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @03:55PM (#35445084)
You're 100% right about this. The Chinese Room argument has been largely debunked, and you just proved one reason why.
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by babyshake on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @04:42PM (#35445625)
Along these lines, it seems the growing consensus is less that AI is more conscious than previously thought, and more than human minds are less conscious than previously thought.
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by roddylindsay on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @04:48PM (#35445674)
I think Searle would agree with you that the room does in fact speak Chinese. His point is that the neither the person, the machine, or "the room" understands Chinese, at least in the usual sense of that word when it comes to understanding as implemented by humans.
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by og_kalu on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @06:22PM (#35446637)
it's still a stupid argument because the brain itself is a chinese room. forget cells or atoms, none of your neurons or synapses understand chinese.
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by nanny on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @08:32PM (#35447698)
>forget cells or atoms, none of your neurons or synapses understand chinese.

And yet some people seem to understand Chinese just fine. How can you explain that gap? It's only a stupid argument if you first assume that functionalism is true.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by og_kalu on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @09:08PM (#35447952)
How do i explain the gap ? Obviously emergence. It's everywhere in nature. a single ant does not display the complexity of its hive.

The argument is supposed/or often used to disqualify machines from consciousness but it's stupid because biological neurons don't understand the bigger picture anymore than an artificial neuron sampled from a model.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by sdfasd324 on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @10:03PM (#35448340)
The entire argument of the Chinese Room stuff related to LLM falls apart really easy.

If you show a 2 years old kid, an apple and you say "This is an apple", now the kid knows the thing - the apple - is an apple in his world model. Automatically inherits LOTs of properties, you can ask the kid and see in real time how he began inmediately to associate the physical object - now named in its internal language model - to some other similar stuff he alredy knows, like "This is plant?", "It falls from a tree like an orange", "It has some skin like an orange", "can you cook apples like you cook bananas?", an so on.

But this requires a physical representation of the apple, now kids intelligence has some edge here, it can do the same thing just with words, you can teach them words, "apple", and say them "it's a fruit", if they have another fruit already "tagged", like a banana, they will say you almost inmediately, "is it tasty like bananas" ("tasty" is code for sweet in child's language models around the planet).

Hence, the LLM could have an emergent property of actually knowing what every word the "say" mean, if - like many have been inferring lastly - they also have a world model, it would relatively easy to just "plug", let's say 10 million of words to their exact meaning, and even to their relative meaning depending on the context they're being used.

And that's precisely what we may be seeing right now when we prompt something to chatGPT, and all the mathematic stuff, like "predicting the next word" is just some really, really low level process inside the LLM, not much different than the electric stuff - watchable by EEG - happening between neurons in the brain.

So if you look at the "EEG" from a LLM, the prediction thing happening inside the LLM, it won't probably tell you much, just like having a casual look to an EEG won't tell you much about what the person was thinking at the time of the capture of the EEG.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by hombre_fatal on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @03:09PM (#35444487)
How does the Chinese room thought experiment not also apply to individual neurons in the brain that don't understand what they are doing?

The second quote doesn't illuminate that. Which biological processes break the symmetry?

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by mcguire on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @03:26PM (#35444729)
As an alternative to Loquebantur's comment, Searle's is trivially reversed: he has no way to demonstrate that he has "semantic" capabilities.

On the first hand, all communication is purely syntactic; letters, words, gestures, and every other formulation of communication is the transfer of symbols, which cannot carry semantic information. They can point to it, they can imply it, but you'll have to dance pretty hard to actually prove the transfer of semantic information. If you and I both have some semantic concept associated with the symbol "China" in our mental landscapes, neither I nor you, nor anyone, has any way determining whether that is the same semantic concept. In fact, it almost assuredly isn't, since those semantic concepts would have to be built from our unique personal histories, which are unique.

On the second, the fundamental assumption of semantic communication is that I feel like I have semantic shenanigans going on in my mental life and Searle sort of looks like me, so I should assume that he has semantic stuff going on. Not only is that not a particularly well-founded assumption, I can't even be sure I have semantic contents in my mental life. Introspection isn't exactly reliable, right?

On the third hand, you have a choice: if you do not agree with Penrose, et al, on the quantum nature of the magic of mind, then Searle's "biologically specific powers" are chemistry. Now, I never actually took a chemistry class, but I don't believe there is any chemical reaction that comes with a label of semantics. It's all physics anyway, which I know cannot introduce semantics.

If you do agree with Penrose (which I understand Searle does), the situation is not actually better. Quantum mechanical antics are random, right? Bell's Inequality and all? Being fundamentally, quantum mechanically, random is not in any sense better from a semantic standpoint than being syntactically deterministic.

So my bottom line is that I don't know if I have semantic contents, I absolutely don't know if Searle has semantic contents (and I'm not feeling generous), and I do not know of any way that he could prove to me that he does have "semantic contents". So, yeah.

You notice I only addressed the second paragraph from Searle. That is because the fundamental flaw in his Chinese Room "demonstration" is on obvious display in his final sentence, "The program enables the person in the room to pass the Turing Test for understanding Chinese but he does not understand a word of Chinese"; it is purely, straight up, dualistic. He is asserting that the person in the room has some magic property of "consciousness or intentionality" and that if the person in the room does not have the "semantic capability" of understanding Chinese, then it is impossible despite all evidence that anything in the scenario has the semantic capability of understanding Chinese.

You could put a native Chinese speaker in the room, reading and responding to the inputs, and he claims it would have "consciousness or intentionality"; you then replace her with me (who didn't exactly dazzle at Spanish and Latin) and even if I produce the same outputs in response to the inputs as she does, there is no "consciousness or intentionality". The difference is simply a magic, intangible, imperceptible soul.

Whoo. Went off on that one.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by chongli on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @04:17PM (#35445325)
On the first hand, all communication is purely syntactic

All formal communication is syntactic, but not all communication is formal, and not all experiences are acquired via communication.

Take the word “pizza”. If you’ve ever seen, smelled, touched, or tasted pizza, then you’ve acquired semantic information about pizza that could not possibly be acquired by syntax alone.

Same goes for informal communication such as eye contact, touch, hugs, kisses, handshakes, sex, etc. These are experiences people share that cannot be acquired through any other means.

Why does this matter for the AI debate? Suppose I ask a master pizza chef for tips to improve my pizza recipe. This chef has presumably many years of pizza-making and tasting experience. The chef can make recommendations to improve the flavour of the pizzas I make at home that are informed by semantic contents; actual knowledge of what effect the ingredients and methods have on the taste.

An AI can do none of that. It can only take the written words (syntactic inputs) of many pizza chefs and synthesize a model for pizza recipes. From that it can send me a bunch of words which, when followed, may or may not improve my pizza recipe.

It has no knowledge whatsoever, not least of which is experience of making and eating pizza. It cannot tell a good recipe from a bad one, unless its training set was specifically labeled to do that. Furthermore, models in general are highly vulnerable to adversarial inputs which would make it trivial for someone to construct a bad pizza recipe that gets misclassified as a good one.

Lastly, the model would be no help at all if I were to suggest a novel topping to add to the pizza. Whereas the pizza chef, if they had the experience of tasting that topping separately from pizza, would be able to imagine how it might taste on a pizza and make an informed recommendation. Furthermore, the pizza chef might even try that novel topping on a pizza and get back to me, something a language model could never do.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by MrScruff on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @06:53PM (#35446937)
This is true. But if the AI was multimodal and we had some sensors that could measure the chemical composition of an object that it’s told is labelled ‘pizza’. Presumably that would count as semantic information?
Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by chongli on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @08:23PM (#35447619)
Yes. But then it’s no longer an LLM. And it still runs into the issues of taste and preference which would have to be included in its training set. At some point we’re no longer talking about AIs, but androids that are built to simulate the complete range of human experiences.

And this was Searle’s original argument. You can’t build intelligence by building strictly symbolic machines (computers). You have to endow them with semantic content by some other means.

Re:We need a much more sophisticated debate about AI by mcguire on Thursday April 06, 2023 @01:44PM (#35471786)
I'm tempted to ask if you acquire semantics via nasal chemoreceptors or via absorption in the small intestine (and if the latter, I'm going to get a bottle of ketchup and take another pass at Kant). But I won't.

I will note that your semantic conception of pizza is likely very different from mine, or from my friend's, who doesn't like cheese. You may have a semantic conception of pizza, but I have no way of knowing that.