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Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by PaulHoule on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:08PM (#35414001)
i think the question is how far you are shipping the hydrogen. If, say, people are making hydrogen in (say) the Middle East and shipping it to (say) Europe then the overhead of liquifying or compressing H2 is on the same order as converting to ammonia. In that paper they demonstrate that you can just use the ammonia directly to reduce iron and not have a separate system to convert it back.

If you have a big wind power or solar complex like the ones being built in the North Sea or Australia you might be better off using hydrogen directly.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by philipkglass on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:16PM (#35414074)
I would guess that even better than shipping ammonia or hydrogen to European steel plants would be to build new steel plants near the hydrogen producers, wherever they may be, and shipping iron ore there while shipping steel back out. Since iron ore and steel are much denser than either ammonia or hydrogen and do not need pressure vessels or chilling they can be shipped at lower speeds (save transport energy consumption) and save money too.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by tonyarkles on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:27PM (#35414172)
I'm asking this 100% from a place of curiosity because I don't know the answer. From iron ore to steel, how much waste is there? If the waste fraction is large, people might balk at the idea of either leaving that waste behind in the hydrogen-host country or burning fossil fuels to ship it around to have a carbon-free extraction process.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by adastra22 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:13PM (#35414655)
Anywhere you have water you have hydrogen.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by to11mtm on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:26PM (#35414811)
Interestingly, the paper mentions that the reactions do produce (some) hydrogen, which could perhaps be recaptured.

However, a bigger concern upon a glance is that this process does produce NOx emissions...

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by londons_explore on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:08PM (#35415229)
NOx from big industrial processes tends not to be an issue. Catalytically reducing it to N2 and O2 is easy, and at the same time, you get out 'free' high grade heat, which there is usually some use for elsewhere in the plant.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by jabl on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:18AM (#35421630)
> Interestingly, the paper mentions that the reactions do produce (some) hydrogen, which could perhaps be recaptured.

The hydrogen is used for reducing the iron oxides, that's the whole point of the process! That is,

FeXOY + H2 => Fe + H2O

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by to11mtm on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:25PM (#35414799)
> From iron ore to steel, how much waste is there?

Depends on how we define 'waste' and at what part of the process.

When they start with the rock from the ground/pit, the rocks/etc are often crushed, running through some sort of slurry while basically separating the 'ore' out from silicates/etc that will be around them. I'm guessing this is already done close to the site, since transport cost could be fairly high even by past standards.

What you wind up Iron ores that are considered 'worth' mining, the actual Iron content is anywhere from ~48% to ~72%. They'll typically have Oxygen, Possibly also Carbon or hydrogen as the 'impurities'.

So, there's still a lot of potential waste in transporting all of that.

[0] - Also, that would theoretically be useful in filling the pit back up, one would hope. But not sure on that one.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by bigger_cheese on Sunday April 02, 2023 @08:16PM (#35416896)
I work in the steel industry so can provide some info here.

In the mining of iron ore there is a step called "beneficiation" which involves the wet processing of minerals - this is not unique to iron ore and is common to many mining operations for a wide variety of materials, wet processing produces a waste slurry known as "tailings" which are typically stored in a dam or similar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailings_dam) - tailings dams have been the cause of major environmental issues in the past. Such as the Brazilian Dam failure in 2019 which killed 250+ people.

After beneficiation Iron ore is transported to a steelworks where it is smelted. The smelting process produces a further waste product "slag" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slag) how much slag is generated depends on a few factors such as the efficiency of the plant and the quality of the raw materials. Steelmaking slags can have some further use, for example it can be used in the concrete and cement industry and as a road base but how much if any of it is recycled very much depends on the country and the steelworks in some countries, particularly those with looser environmental restrictions slag is sent to landfill.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by conradev on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:45PM (#35414344)
This is how Iceland exports the bulk of its hydroelectric energy, but they use aluminum
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by shagie on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:22PM (#35416462)
I was going to correct you with geothermal, but then I looked it up and it turns out that the majority of Iceland's electrical production is indeed hydro rather than geothermal (TIL).

In finding the source for this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Iceland aluminum was the thing of note there. I was aware that this was the main power consumption (tangent to reading Artemis by Andy Weir).

> ... This trend continued and increases in the production of hydroelectric power are directly related to industrial development. In 2005, Landsvirkjun produced 7,143 GWh of electricity total of which 6,676 GWh or 93% was produced via hydroelectric power plants. 5,193 GWh or 72% was used for power-intensive industries like aluminum smelting.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by conradev on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:36PM (#35427993)
Yes! It's the similar with Norway. One of the largest exporters of oil, but entirely hydroelectric for electricity generation. It's the fjords!
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by frankus on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:14PM (#35414671)
Anhydrous ammonia’s volatility is on the order of that of propane/LPG (although a lot more hazardous to inhale), so the containment is easier than what the words “pressure vessel” might evoke.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:09PM (#35415237)
Exactly, I struggle to see any situation, barring mismanagement or disaster, where you should be shipping tankers full of hydrogen byproducts like ammonia and losing most of the energy in the process.

We are currently importing all the natural gas in Europe, and both the price and carbon footrpint are more than double of what pipeline delivered from Russia.

You could build a pipeline from the middle east to Europe for hydrogen. We are already building powerplants in Sahara to export energy to EU. But I do not see why you should ever need to.

Iron ore and Aluminium ore is literally everywhere. We could move all of primary metal refining close to equator for solar power. China is close enough to equator, and produces huge quantities of Iron. Australia could be producing iron, they have plenty of sun.

Or Europe could produce hydrogen in the summer and store for the winter to keep refineries running.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by rainbowzootsuit on Sunday April 02, 2023 @05:40PM (#35415543)
Hydrogen, being so small, penetrates directly through the molecular structure of steel and in the process causes embrittlement of the steel. Is a long distance H2 pipeline a solved problem using alternate materials?
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday April 02, 2023 @09:24PM (#35417409)
I believe plastic pipes?
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by yxhuvud on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:30AM (#35418573)
It is not. Thankfully the electricity required for hydrolysis can either be moved around or created sufficiently close to a steel plant.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by senectus1 on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:27AM (#35418890)
thats one reason why ammonia is a good choice. the storage requirements are much kinder to the transporter
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by KMag on Sunday April 02, 2023 @06:09PM (#35415801)
But the mass of the extracted oxygen exceeds the mass of the ammonia used, and we're only talking about 250 PSI to liquify anhydrous ammonia at room temperature. A large pressure vessel's mass is going to be negligible compared to the mass of the ammonia it holds. So, the same displacement ship traveling at the same speed can supply the production of more steel if you ship the ammonia to the iron ore instead of the other way around.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by icegreentea2 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:18PM (#35416418)
From this (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965261...), they estimate a scaled up process requiring ~50kg of hydrogen to generate 1000kg of steel (which would be about 1500kg of iron ore).

50kg of hydrogen should be equivalent to like ~600kg of ammonia (if I did my math right). So there's a substantial mass difference in one way shipping of 600kg of ammonia versus two way shipping of ~1000kg of solids to consider. In addition, since the tanker is empty on the return trip, if we were willing to play the travel time game, we could reduce tanker return speeds to try to compensate for running faster while carrying.

So I don't think it's completely cut and dry that shipping the iron ore/steel makes more sense.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by philipkglass on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:41PM (#35416633)
* * *
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by photochemsyn on Sunday April 02, 2023 @04:36PM (#35414908)
I think it's more rational to ship the hydrogen as methane, rather than ammonia. The energetics are comparable IIRC (Sabatier for methane, Haber-Bosch for ammonia, but it's more or less the same kind of high-pressure moderate-temp chemistry pipeline). Methane from CO2 + H2 vs. ammonia from N2 + H2, it's just that the latter technology has seen more research and investment.
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by senectus1 on Sunday April 02, 2023 @09:00PM (#35417234)
The ammonia has a purpose on its own, as fertilizer. The nitrogen used to make it, is also freely pulled from the atmosphere
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by lazide on Sunday April 02, 2023 @09:52PM (#35417599)
It’s also great for making explosives.

What?

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by senectus1 on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:29AM (#35418895)
A knife is great for spreading butter on toast.. also really good for stabbing as well.

your point is kinda silly, if thats the point you were trying to make.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by Schroedingersat on Sunday April 02, 2023 @07:57PM (#35416758)
>90% of the world's iron ore comes from very sunny places. Easier to just ship steel rather than iron ore and ammonia. For the last 10%, move the iron ore the other way (or still use local solar energy, because it is still cheaper than shipping ammonia).
Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by rstuart4133 on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:58PM (#35433599)
> Easier to just ship steel rather than iron ore and ammonia.

Australia has a lot of high grade coal, which can be used for steel making (unlike low grade coal). And Australia has enormous quantities of high grade iron ore (as in you can weld to the rocks found in some parts of the country). Yet to the frustration of many Australian's we don't make steel. Instead we export the coal and ore to countries that make the steel, and they export the finished product back to us.

Re:Reducing Iron Oxide with Ammonia: A Sustainable Path to G... by Schroedingersat on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:31PM (#35434683)
Easier to shift the blame for producing 10% of the world's emissions with 0.3% of the world's population that way.

Plus doing anything else might see Australia benefiting from their natural resources. Last time a government tried that, the CIA and Britain delivered a new one.