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Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by FpUser on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:17PM (#35395983)
>"We're going to need software engineers to be accountable for things we've done and signed off on."

And see them evaporate from the companies that would implement something like this.

Personally I would neve take a contract where I could be held legally responsible for bugs.

And ultimately it is the owner who let the product out in a wild without spending a year testing billions of permutations first. Try holding them responsible and see how far can you get.

Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by Eisenstein on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:09PM (#35396686)
'Hard' engineers do this, though. If you want the label you should take the responsibility as well.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by FpUser on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:50PM (#35396925)
I do not give a shit about a label and have none in a software field. Just MSc in physics. I design and implement products and I have long list of clients happy with my work. This helps me find new contracts. You can call me a shrub if you wish. I still get paid.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by throw_m239339 on Saturday April 01, 2023 @12:54AM (#35397264)
> I do not give a shit about a label and have none in a software field. Just MSc in physics. I design and implement products and I have long list of clients happy with my work. This helps me find new contracts. You can call me a shrub if you wish. I still get paid.

Don't bother, the people you are answering to, the "engineers", are concern trolls who want to become gatekeepers that will force you to have an "software engineering license" they control to do your job, that's their ultimate goal, they are corporatists.

Imagine needing a freaking license to deploy an app, Communist China style, These people are cunning and come to every thread where somebody screws up to push their anti free market agenda. Don't waste your energy arguing with them, call them out.

Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by anthk on Saturday April 01, 2023 @11:21AM (#35400981)
In Europe calling yourself an enginner without having a proper title can send you to jail, because an actual Engineer has civil duties and accountability on civil causalities.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by theK on Saturday April 01, 2023 @04:18AM (#35398350)
Never heard that term. Who calls themselves a "hard" engineer?
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by narag on Saturday April 01, 2023 @04:51AM (#35398553)
It seems it's a play with soft-ware hard-ware, implying electric and civil engineering.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by washadjeffmad on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:40PM (#35402830)
No one, but there are PEs.

The frivolity with which "Engineer" titles were co-opted by tech has always been distasteful to me. It felt intended to claim all of the prestige with none of the rigor, accountability, or social responsibility.

Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by salawat on Saturday April 01, 2023 @04:28PM (#35403774)
I want a software PE program so bad. I've done my best to hold myself to the same ethical standards, but if there isn't a legal bite behind negligence, you just get shoved aside.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by FpUser on Sunday April 02, 2023 @09:05AM (#35410100)
Unless you work in regulated sector where lives / critical infra literally depends on your code no employer will pay for "PE level ethical standard" development. Too expensive. So your PE will be of very limited value unless you want to prohibit people without PE making a living writing software in general. But if that is what you want my take is - GFY.
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by cookiengineer on Saturday April 01, 2023 @06:29AM (#35399061)
> (Hardware) engineers do this, though.

Broadcom exploits over the years would disagree. So would Samsung's hardware encryption. So would TPM. So would BadUSB. So would everything related to Bluetooth. Et cetera.

No matter what kind of engineering you do, don't try to predict the future. Engineer towards ease of maintenance and ease of update/deployment instead.

Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by hedora on Saturday April 01, 2023 @10:43PM (#35406617)
I don’t think that’s true.

None of the engineers I have hired or worked with assume such liability directly.

Usually, their firms limit liability to the price of the contract. I assume insurance does otherwise.

Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by BeFlatXIII on Sunday April 02, 2023 @09:40AM (#35410383)
* * *
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by eviks on Saturday April 01, 2023 @12:48AM (#35397237)
What billions of permutations do you need to test when the test had already been done by someone else and brought to your issue tracker on a silver platter?
Re:The undocumented Android change that led to aCropalypse w... by usefulcat on Saturday April 01, 2023 @09:52PM (#35406303)
> And see them evaporate from the companies that would implement something like this.

It might be doable, but would also require (at a minimum) a lot more compensation to make up for the increased liability. Which gets to the heart of the problem, it’s a lot more expensive to produce higher quality software.