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Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:44PM (#35390499)
Also of note: this decline only continues as long as the Fed actually cuts rates. If they don't, these long-term bond yields make no sense (why would you lend money for 10 years at 3.5% when you can lend money for 3650 successive 1-day terms at 4.75%?)

The logic behind this seems a bit circular to me. Market participants accept lower long-term bond rates because they expect the Fed to cut rates in the future. They expect the Fed to cut rates because if they don't, there will be a financial crisis. There will be a financial crisis because long-term bond rates are high and banks are underwater on their bonds, except that bond rates are declining because the Fed is going to cut rates, because...uh, why is there going to be a financial crisis again? What reason does the Fed have for dropping rates? It's very much an "appeal to consequences" fallacy - some bad outcome is not going to happen because that would be bad. The world doesn't work that way.

IMHO the market is wrong, and the Fed is not going to cut rates. They've gotten too accustomed to being bailed out, and the Fed is on to them, and so they're not going to do that again, at least not in the form that the market expects.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by kypro on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:05PM (#35390820)
It makes more sense when you consider that the market has never believed long-term inflation was a serious issue because frankly the narrative around structurally higher inflation has never made much sense given demographics, technology and debt levels. For the most part where the uncertainty has existed has been in the path of the Fed.

For the last several months (since Jackson Hole) markets haven't been sure how quickly inflation would come down and therefore how high the Fed might risk taking rates. But today we have much more certainty. We now know the Fed really can't raise rates much more near-term given the risks and longer-term the stimulus and supply bottlenecks which created the majority of the inflationary pressures will ease.

Another thing you need to remember is that inflation easing is actually deflationary because real yields are calculated by nominal yields minus inflation. So as inflation comes down you're actually getting paid more to lock your cash up in bonds which continues to tighten financial conditions.

The risk of a larger financial crisis is very low given this isn't a credit event, but a duration event. As long as the Fed doesn't raise rates further we can rule out a financial crisis and so long as you don't believe there is a structural inflationary problem in the economy rates should trend downwards over the coming months.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by analognoise on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:50PM (#35392536)
Isn't a huge part of the inflation simply corporate greed?

It's not really supply chain bottlenecks. It's greed. Same thing for "14 year olds can work in meat packing plants".

Greed is having a moment and must be countered by policy (top marginal tax rate of 90%, let's go!)

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:25PM (#35393888)
Except that the narrative around demographics and technology has shifted to support higher inflation.

Inflation was kept low through the 2000s despite massive quantitative easing because you had the entry of 3 billion workers into the global economy, keeping wages low even though the money supply was high. That trend has reversed. China hit peak workforce employment in 2015 and their workforce is now shrinking fast, the result of their One Child Only policy in the 70s. The same demographic headwinds affect all major developed economies. Fertility rates fell below replacement rate in most of the developed world in the 1990s - that baby bust is now entering the workforce.

Similarly, technological progress has slowed down over the last 40 years. Much of the low-hanging fruit has already been picked; only a select few industries still show significant technological development. In particular, the major need-to-live industries like housing, health care, food, and energy have seen few yield-increasing technological developments over this period, and their price has risen accordingly.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by kypro on Friday March 31, 2023 @07:45PM (#35395318)
> Except that the narrative around demographics and technology has shifted to support higher inflation.

We don't understand the drivers of inflation very well and people have different theories on this.

You may be correct though. Fundamentally inflation is driven by the change in the supply and demand for goods and services, and in a globalised world with rapidly changing geopolitical landscapes and technological advancements it's hard to predict actually how supply and demand pressures will balance out in the coming years.

However, what we do know is that demographics have historically correlated well with inflationary pressures. The inflation in the 70s was likely in part driven by the huge growth in demand which came from the baby boomers entering the economy. Then more recently you have examples like Japan where demographics have clearly played a role in their sluggish economic growth and low inflation.

But to be clear, I'm not saying the market is necessarily right in its pricing, I'm just suggesting that there's a lot of good reasons to believe the Fed funds rate is currently too high and will need to come down. Even if you're correct you would still have to explain why inflation rocketed up in 2021 right after trillions of dollars of stimulus entered the economy. The trends you're describing have been in place for years. The inflation we've seen over the last couple of years in my opinion is just far easier to explain via the combination of reckless monetary policy, fiscal stimulus and lockdown policies.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by prottog on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:11PM (#35390958)
> (why would you lend money for 10 years at 3.5% when you can lend money for 3650 successive 1-day terms at 4.75%?)

That's the thing, you can't know that. Rates could go up, down, sideways, or in circles over the next 10 years. A 10-year bond locks it in to a predictable rate and payment schedule.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:27PM (#35393911)
You can't, but the narrative presented for why rates will go down is that there will be a financial crisis that forces the Fed to drop rates. How can you simultaneously assume there will not be a financial crisis that wipes out a large number of financial institutions under those premises?
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by sdwr on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:02PM (#35390768)
> The world doesn't work that way.

The world does work that way! Most people don't want bad stuff to happen, and will take action, coordinated or otherwise, to prevent bad stuff from happening.

To me, sounds like the Fed is trying to slow this thing down without spooking people. So, promise to cut rates soon, then see what people can actually tolerate, and maybe leave them high enough to chafe a bit.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by TinyRick on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:59PM (#35390721)
Spot on. Listen to the language the Fed uses and this is the clear answer, recently they have been saying things like "we still have a lot of work to do on inflation", "the banking sector is resilient", etc.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by kjksf on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:23PM (#35391156)
This is the same FED who said "inflation is temporary" and then hiked rates like krazy.

I'm not saying this is proof that they won't hike rates, just that what they say should be heavily discounted.

They might just pivot on a dime.

What I find interesting is that literally everyone is saying that FED is wrong.

Like find me anyone outside FED that says: yeah, rising rates is good.

Granted, many people who comment (wall street) have self-interest in rates being low but I don't think there's any notable economist who isn't critical of FED.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by TinyRick on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:32PM (#35391287)
FWIW I'm not suggesting that the Fed should or will continue to hike rates. I think they are going to pause rate hikes in the near term and wait for more data to ensure inflation does not become entrenched. The parent comment I replied to said "the Fed is not going to cut rates" which I agree with - but I also don't think they are going to hike rates either.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by Y_Y on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:04PM (#35390806)
Because rate won’t be 4.75% in 3649 days? If you want a rate guaranteed for 10 years you have to pay for that. Maybe it's not worth it to you today but if the rates drop as expected you might look smart for locking in a good return while the going was good.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:11PM (#35390961)
What's the mechanism for that drop? The Fed doesn't just drop interest rates when everything is going well in the economy. The usual trigger is that some exogenous crisis happens like the Asian financial crisis, the global financial crisis, or COVID-19, and then the Fed drops to stimulate economic activity. Take a financial crisis out of the picture, because everyone who assumes there will be no financial crisis is explicitly taking a financial crisis out of the picture. Why would the Fed drop rates?
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by kjksf on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:28PM (#35391236)
For one there's an election in 2024.

High interest is killing stock market returns.

No administration wants to enter election season with decimated stock market.

Hence, if nothing else, there will be political pressure on FED to lower interest rates to juice up stock market.

Second, some kind of recession is expected by many so if it happens, that will a reason to cut rates.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by lesuorac on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:09PM (#35392843)
[Citation Needed]

The fed historically does take actions adverse to employment in election years.

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/commentaries/2016/08/25/...

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by ac29 on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:30PM (#35393176)
> High interest is killing stock market returns.

The stock market (as measured by SP500) is down only 15% from its all time high, and is currently higher than any point before 2021.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:18PM (#35393803)
Only 55% of Americans own stock at all, only 35% in a non-retirement account [1], and the top 20% of earners own 87% of equities [2]. In polling, the stock market is not a significant factor in most Americans' vote. Stockholders tend to dramatically overestimate their numbers and importance.

Inflation, however, will reliably kill a presidency. Note that we went through 4 presidents in the 8 years of the 1970s inflation, while the average president in the 40 years afterward served for 8 years. This holds universally across cultures as well - globally, countries like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Weimar Germany, post-war Eastern Europe, etc. go through rapid regime change during periods of high inflation.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/25/few-in-u-s-...

[2] https://financebuzz.com/how-many-americans-own-stocks

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by francisofascii on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:03PM (#35391764)
Odds are there will be an economic downturn in the next ten years. Why? Because their usually is. It doesn't need to be a huge crisis. And that is when the Fed will drop rates.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by gerad on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:12PM (#35390969)
Because there’s no guarantee rates will stay at 4.75% for 10 years. Getting 4.75% for 1 year and then 0% for the next 9 years is objectively far worse than getting 3.5% for 10 years.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by rcme on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:54PM (#35390643)
The Fed is projecting rate cuts next year. As of March 22nd, the Fed is projecting a federal funds rate of 4.3 in 2024 and 3.1 in 2025, with 2.5 in the “longer run”.

Hard to say the Fed won’t cut rates when their own projections have them cutting rates.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by mullingitover on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:58PM (#35390716)
They were also projecting rates would be low before they suddenly weren't. If the Fed projections were reliable, banks wouldn't be in this situation.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:01PM (#35390761)
> Fed projections were reliable, banks wouldn't be in this situation

SVB didn't do anything to hedge its duration even well after the "inflation is transitory" period was over.

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by rcme on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:04PM (#35390809)
My point was more that the Fed wants to keep rates as low as possible. The person I was responding to was implying the Fed would choose not to lower rates even if they could to avoid “bailing out” the banks.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by TinyRick on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:15PM (#35391018)
Why does the Fed want to keep rates as low as possible? Their mandates are to provide price stability and maximize employment, not keep rates as low as possible. Unemployment is very low so they are doing well in terms of maximizing employment, but inflation is still running hot, so the logical thing for them to do is keep rates high enough to stave off continued inflationary pressures.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by TinyRick on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:25PM (#35391188)
I can't reply to your most recent comment rcme, but it sounds like you are agreeing with me? Yes, if inflation is at 2% then the Fed would be incentivized to reduce rates, but....it's not, it's over 5% and has been for some time.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by rcme on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:15PM (#35391983)
Yes, but they want to lower rates, they just can't :)
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by rcme on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:19PM (#35391089)
The Fed wants to keep rates as low as possible because their mandate is to keep inflation at 2% and maximize employment. If inflation is at or under 2%, then lowering rates will increase economic activity and increased economic activity will reduce unemployment.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by nostrademons on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:34PM (#35393965)
The unemployment rate is now 3.6%, about the lowest it's ever been. Where are these workers going to come from?

The Fed has been very explicit that they need to tighten labor market conditions. "Tighten labor market conditions" = "cause layoffs". That's how it works, they just can't say it out loud because it'll spook people. They can't bring down inflation until they raise rates high enough that companies start going under, and they have no incentive to lower rates unless actual bad things are happening in the real economy. (Remember also that when rates are high, the Fed has more room to cut when actual bad things do happen, because there's a floor at zero.)

Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by akashshah87 on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:57PM (#35390684)
This is not true. If the bonds are held to maturity, there are no losses.
Re:US banks have $620B of unrealized losses on their books by naveen99 on Saturday April 01, 2023 @08:20AM (#35399660)
Opportunity costs of missing temporarily higher interest rates while bonds are locked up.