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Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by stuckinhell on Thursday March 30, 2023 @11:09PM (#35382009)
Because Trump has nearly religious following that scares many many people on the left and right.

They will do ANYTHING to stop him out of fear, anger, arrogance etc. The problem here is Trump is an expert at reflection. This HAS ALREADY empowered his base, and strengthened Ron Desantis.

I think the hardest part to accept is nearly half the nation DOES NOT AGREE with progressive principles at their very core.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jshen on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:02AM (#35382794)
The democratic nominee for President has won the popular vote in something like 7 of the last 8 presidential elections. A majority of Americans do have progressive principles, but America is a minority rule country at the moment.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by claytongulick on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:35AM (#35383040)
When you consider population clusters in the big urban areas, your point is diluted a bit.

There's a reason we don't do popular vote; California and New York would pretty much pick the president every election.

Take a look at the geographic distribution of red v blue by county in the 2020 presidential election [1].

Unless you're advocating for a hunger games type dystopian hellscape where 90% of the country is controlled by a few urban clusters, you may want to rethink your point.

[1] https://brilliantmaps.com/2020-county-election-map/

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by vmladenov on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:42AM (#35383509)
Land doesn’t vote, people do. Your argument justifies federalism, not unequal voting power.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by Izkata on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:24AM (#35384895)
The US is a republic of states, not a democracy. We vote by electoral college, and not directly by the population, for a reason. The electoral college is weighted using both the House (population-weighted representation) and Senate (equal state representation) so the small states don't get ignored and controlled by the large states.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bobsil1 on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:45AM (#35385043)
States are artificial, national elections should be ranked choice, or at worst simple majority vote.

Electoral college was a sop to slavers and should be deleted. It doesn't empower small states, it empowers large states which happen to be swing states.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by SuoDuanDao on Friday March 31, 2023 @07:52AM (#35385642)
On the other hand, if power in the US was as centralized at the time as you seem to suggest it should be, federal marshals would have simply enforced the escaped slaves act over abolitionist state's protests.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bobsil1 on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:42AM (#35387045)
Returning escaped slaves was in the constitution itself (fugitive slave clause).

Founders’ intent is pretty irrelevant to today’s problems. They ran forced labor plantations, hadn’t mastered electricity or germ theory of disease, and the biggest city was ~30K people.

1 person = 1 vote, get rid of all the rural planter rigs.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:30AM (#35388611)
"States" are a fiction. There are only people. So to translate what you wrote into on-the-ground reality: the senate exists to make sure that the people who live in states with small populations are not subject to the will of the majority of people in the country.

This is defensible, and I'm sure you would not balk at being called "anti-majoritarian", but lets be clear about what is going on.

Also, post-Civil War, this "we're a republic not a democracy" stuff really changed significantly. While it may have been absolutely true in 1776, it became much less true in the 1800s, and has continued to become even less so in the 1900s. It may have been better if the Constitution had been amended to reflect this (since it was happening anyway), but it's burying your head in the sand to pretend that the original conception is reality on the ground today.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by Izkata on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:40AM (#35388778)
We have state governments and different laws across states, and people move between states in part because of the effects those laws have on their lives. It is still very much a reality.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:29PM (#35389479)
What we have is a heirarchy of laws, ranging from constitutional to federal to state to county to local. I think this is a great idea. But it doesn't mean that we're "just" a republic of states.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by peteforde on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:25AM (#35383790)
The disconnect here is that to many of us, it seems 100% rational that the majority of people (whether popular or representative) should pick the president. Not because of who people in cities tend to vote for, but because it makes no logical sense to allocate so much influence to so few people.

The universe doesn't owe unpopular ideas equal footing. People who don't like what cities think might feel like the odds are stacked against them in a popular contest. They are correct.

We don't give new chess players extra queens, either.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bobsil1 on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:44AM (#35385024)
One person should = one vote, absurd that Wyoming gets 70× the Senate influence with the population of Modesto.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by claytongulick on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:17AM (#35383324)
Playing with numbers is fun!

I'll do it too:

Republicans have won 8 out of the past 14 elections, and won the popular vote as well as the electoral college in six out of eight [1].

Or, looking at it another way, of the past 14 elections, republicans won the popular vote by an average of 7.42%, while democrats only won by 5.28%, which if you took that pointless cherry picked data seriously could convince you that on average republican candidates are significantly more popular than democrats.

The fact is, this country is split fairly evenly along the nonsensical left/right axis.

A more interesting evaluation would be along the authoritarian vs antiauthoritarian axis. I think a much larger percentage of Americans fall along the antiauthoritarian axis, and that the noise in the left/right false dichotomy is a result of that more than anything.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presid...

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by peteforde on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:29AM (#35383822)
This is only true if you evaluate votes by district. Historically, the only thing Republicans love more than picking judges is gerrymandering districts.

If they didn't go to absurd lengths to chop up districts, it wouldn't even be a close fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpamjJtXqFI

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jshen on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:49AM (#35387970)
“Republicans have won … the popular vote … in six out of eight”

Your own link shows that Democrats have won the popular vote 7 out of the last 8.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:25AM (#35388527)
If the question was "Would you support a strong leader who might make some unpopular decisions that would make America great again?", and a lot of people said yes, would call them anti-authoritarians or authoritarians?
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by claytongulick on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:51PM (#35389805)
Well, that's a pretty simple question.

Here are more complex ones:

"[Party A] is actively censoring speech that they don't agree with, calling it misinformation, even though their 'fact checkers' have shown strong political bias. Do you support this?"

and

"[Party B] wants to restrict your right to your body and self-ownership by limiting access to healthcare like abortion and gender affirming care for adults. Do you support this?"

These are the sorts of political "points" that both parties try to score. There are lots more examples.

What's the common theme?

There's an underlying message of "scary authoritarian government controlling me".

I think that most Americans, regardless of political party, have fairly strong antiauthoritarian leanings. I think both political parties attempt to exploit this in political messaging, but neither actually mean it.

By definition, a political party seeks power.

Of course, no one wants to point out their own power-seeking, so the only option is to point out your opponent's.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:29PM (#35390262)
You're attempting to leverage the ambiguity in the word "censorship". Don't want to play.

The sort of authoritarian instincts I was thinking of involve things more like: incarceration camps for people with national origins in the wrong place, immigration policies denying entry to people from the wrong place, ignoring Constitutional separation between church & state to allow "just a little" theocratic bleed-through (imagine if the "church" in question was a mosque), using the army for law enforcement, outlawing more strikes by "critical workers", seeking to restrain the behavior of corporate persons (previously established as subject to the first amendment by SCOTUS) ... and we could go on. Basically, "fascism light" - nothing too horrible, just round one of Pastor Niemoller's famous anecdote.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by WillPostForFood on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:49AM (#35383569)
Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and Bill Clinton represent progressive principles? Hardly. Even Barack Obama, who opposed gay marriage when he ran for office was closer to being a Republican than a Progressive in his political rhetoric (though he is clearly a progressive at heart).
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by piva00 on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:36AM (#35384264)
> Even Barack Obama, who opposed gay marriage when he ran for office

Wasn't that just a political play? Given that America as a society at large is pretty conservative, even within the Democrats base, pandering to opposing gay marriage gives a net positive voting.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by pengstrom on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:30AM (#35384566)
Well, this is politics so I fail to see the difference.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by uxp100 on Friday March 31, 2023 @08:28AM (#35386066)
Whether it matters that it was a political play aside, I guess I really don’t believe it was. Maybe there is some presidential historian who has dug into the documents, I’m just going on vibes I remember from the time.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by wizofaus on Friday March 31, 2023 @07:22AM (#35385360)
Al Gore at least seemed to have some progressive appeal on the environmentalism front, but yes, as a non-American that was exactly my thought - there's been no real indication from federal elections in the US in recent decades at least that very many Americans could be considered genuinely progressive in their political leaning. Pretty much all the Democrats supported policies that would be considered quite conservative (or downright regressive) in many other Western nations. None of which has anything much to do with my dismay that Trump still has the support he does.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by esja on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:36AM (#35384972)
Those facts don't support your conclusion. The popular vote is not even close to "a majority of Americans". Something like 120 million American adults didn't even vote in 2016, versus around 66 and 63 million who voted for Clinton and Trump respectively. Clinton winning would still have been "minority rule" by this measure.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:23AM (#35388487)
> It seems obvious that of the 120 million people who weren’t motivated to vote

Could be true, but it's certainly not "obvious". There are myriad reasons (especially in the USA) why people might not vote that nothing to do with their political opinions (ideology or intensity). I am sure that a significant number of the 120 million non-voters were "not motivated", but not all of them. And of the "not motivated", it is hard to know the real reasons why and what it means. Some of them, for example, would never vote, regardless of who ran or what the platforms were. Maybe some of them would vote for radical progressive if there was one with credible chance of winning. Maybe some of them would vote for a blatantly Mussolini-inspired candidate. Either way, it isn't obvious that motivation was the reason to not vote for all of them and it certainly isn't clear that they are more likely to be "latent conservatives".

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by esja on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:44AM (#35388840)
You’re right, it’s not obvious. And perhaps to strengthen your point, countries with compulsory voting (e.g. Australia) don’t seem to show any particular skew.

Regarding the original point, Pew published some interesting stats on voter preferences:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-v...

According to this, progressives are a very small slice of the population, and nowhere near a majority even if you include adjacent groups.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:27PM (#35389454)
The Pew study is interesting, but I feel that it's whole approach manages to elide the more important question of what specific policies a majority of the population would support. It is clear (in general, and in the Pew report) that there are many policies that both the "progressive left" and "conservative right" will never agree on. But it is less clear what might be the support for policies like e.g. government industrial policy involving investment in US-based businesses which can be spun either way but are generally "populist".

Alas, we appear unlikely to find out, since no presidential/senate candidate is going to do anything truly populist with economic policy for fear of pissing off the big donors.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by esja on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:52PM (#35390613)
Yes, that’s the big unknown. It’s hard for any sort of anti-establishment populist to emerge. Trump is an example of this: he basically ran against both parties, was rendered ineffective, and they haven’t stopped trying to bury him. Ross Perot, Ron Paul & Bernie Sanders covered similar ground (albeit from different angles) and hit the same wall.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:20PM (#35391101)
According to Pew, the wall they ran into is that their policies are not popular enough.

But anyway, I do not consider Trump as having been rendered ineffective, and he certainly isn't buried.

More centrally, there's no obligation of those with the (literal or metaphorical) printing presses to spread the good word Our Favorite Populist of the moment. In the USA, we ceded control of "the press" to the private sector, without any expectation that they would ever act against the interests of their owners. There's no reason why any multi-(m|b)illion corporation is ever going to champion Bernie Sander's policies. On the other hand, Trump's policies (from day one) were just fine for the largest news organization on the planet, precisely because they were never threatening to the status quo.

If people actually want to hear populist policies, they're going to have to pay attention to something other than corporate owned media, regardless of its nominal political orientation.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by yamtaddle on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:57AM (#35389024)
We don't have a popular vote for President. Candidates, campaigns, and voters would all behave differently if we did.

It's like if your baseball team lost a game and saying "yeah, but they had the fewest batters struck out!" OK... but that's not how the winner is determined, and both teams would have played differently if it were. We can't know what the outcome would have been, in that case.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jshen on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:55PM (#35392623)
your comment has nothing to do with the topic we were discussing. The person I replied to made a comment about what a majority of people in America believe.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by yamtaddle on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:06PM (#35392800)
Aside from addressing the irrelevance of the single piece of evidence you supplied to support that, sure, it's got nothing to do with it.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jshen on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:04PM (#35393631)
Pointing out that we have the electoral college days absolutely nothing about what a majority of people believe which was the topic being discussed.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bobsil1 on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:42AM (#35385014)
"nearly half" — T•••• controls ~a quarter of the GOP, which is ~a third of US voters, so < 10% of US electorate.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:11AM (#35388300)
> They will do ANYTHING to stop him out of fear, anger, arrogance etc

ANYTHING, eh? Please tell me, what did they do? Trump won an election (thanks to the mechanics of the Electoral College), he served as president, he passed laws (some of which the courts overturned, as happens with most presidents), he handed out pardons (some wise, some not), and then he lost an election.

What is this "ANYTHING" that has been done to stop him?

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jshen on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:57PM (#35392642)
Agree, and let's reverse it. Trump will do ANYTHING to stay in power, including the incitement of a violent coup attempt where they were chanting to hang his own VP!