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Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by Retric on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:47AM (#35357229)
The major issue isn’t the bacteria but their byproducts. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

This is why you can’t render rotten meat safe by simply cooking it. That said, people still age meat. Small birds for will get left for 4-9 days in a cool space before being butchered etc. https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasan...

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by giraffe_lady on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @10:06AM (#35357474)
Yep other than a couple notable exceptions like salmonella, this is the norm for food poisoning. It's intoxication from metabolic byproducts, not infection. Remains one of the biggest lay misunderstandings of food safety though.

"Just cook it out" plus "your nose can tell" (it can't, spoilage microbes aren't usually illness microbes) are false beliefs that still get people killed.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by foobarian on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:01AM (#35358274)
Curious about sources for this. I see some indication that botulism toxin can be destroyed by cooking, though the bar is pretty high - needs to be boiled over 5 minutes. So lesser temperature methods such as grilling the meat may not be sufficient, but something like stewing over many hours seems like would work fine.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by giraffe_lady on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:22AM (#35358579)
I'm not gonna have a peer reviewed journal article for you or anything. I learned this in the food safety class you have to go through before managing a kitchen in a lot of jurisdictions.

> stewing over many hours seems like would work fine.

It won't! Good luck with it though.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by foobarian on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:52AM (#35359011)
Well I get that would make sense in that kind of environment. Best way to not hurt your customers is to never even risk it - why would you?

But my agenda is more selfish. I like to cold-smoke meats for adding to stews, based on the knowledge that stewing in > 85'C [1] water will destroy the botulism toxin. I could just stay away from cold-smoked meats to be safe; but then I would lose out on some of the tastiest food ever :-)

It can be a confusing topic because there are 3 different things to worry about: the active bacteria, the spores, and the toxin. Of the 3, the spores are the most resistant to heat, and according to the WHO link [1] can survive multiple hours in boiling water. However the toxin seems relatively unstable.

I really need to track down their sources though.

[1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by undersuit on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:51AM (#35359004)
Boiling for 10 minutes would be better. Pressure Cooking would be best as it can reach the heat/pressure needed to destroy the botulism spores too.
Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:53AM (#35359026)
Here's an example with Staph food poisoning[1]. The bacteria dies when you cook it, but the enterotoxins that Staph generates aren't broken down by heat and remain (section 4). It's good to not consume live Staph, but contaminated food can still cause issues despite cooking.

[1]https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/827965/

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by throwway120385 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:19PM (#35361942)
USDA indicates that boiling for 10 minutes can prevent botulism: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/202...

Although the boiling doesn't destroy the toxin itself, only the bacterial spores.

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by foobarian on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:59PM (#35362557)
> Although the boiling doesn't destroy the toxin itself, only the bacterial spores.

The other way around

Re:A surprising food may have been a staple of the real Pale... by logicalmonster on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @03:30PM (#35362100)
1) Is this what was referred to in the movie "The Menu" where they were taking the tour in the beginning and talking about the 152 day aging process for meat, but the 153rd day would bring chaos?

2) Why is there such a precise known number for that issue? Don't bacteria grow differently? It just seems odd that 152 days would definitely be ok and 153 days would definitely kill.