https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/chi...

Power can be used without needing to publicly arrest someone

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-by...

(Probably the only silver lining of this geopolitical “competition” right now.)

That belief has to ultimately be a statement of faith. It is basically counting on highly untrustworthy people behaving honestly - they probably aren't. And all the elements of the system are hidden where there is no accountability.

It is just a fact that Google and the US intelligence apparatus are more invasive than TickTok and the Chinese. The former combo spy and conspire against almost literally the range of Trump to Afghan goat herders. TickTok can compete with that, but it can't exceed it.

If I could pick one, I'd feel much safer being spied on the Chinese than the Americans. They've got much less ability to make my life hell. Look at how far Snowden had to run, and how Assange never ran far enough.

This isn't a fact, and that people pretend that it is is a strange contortion of reality that I'm really struggling to understand. CCP is actively using a vast state-sponsored surveillance apparatus to do things like build actual (not imagined) concentration camps. And your reaction to these facts is to imagine that the American state's reaction to its secrets being exposed - regardless of how noble that action was - is the same thing. It's clearly not. For your comparison to be worthwhile, you have to pretend that CIA and NSA are co-owners of Meta and Google and have the means to use it to move elections and public opinion (foreign and domestic) in the way the American regime wants. Is this what you're claiming?

But it is coming. We know the US regularly heads out to topple foreign governments. It just isn't plausible that they'd ignore the influence of US social media companies when they do that. Certainly I think India and the EU would have to be a bit crazy to give Facebook & friends free access to their population. I expect there is a faction at Google who have Modi voodoo dolls on hand.

> It's clearly not.

I have no doubt it is clear to you, but the term for that is 'bias'. If you are in a Western country, you're probably safer with TikTok because it is less influential than the US media companies and the Chinese spying and renditioning apparatus is less sophisticated. China are also much more passive (not exactly by choice, it must be said) and won't use the data for targeting missile strikes on your military leaders.

The experience that some Americans have, perhaps those who work in technology in particular, can make you fairly hostile to all of the above. I'm not denying that CIA or NSA or the US State Department use Meta or other social media systems to influence elections or governments abroad. I'm making two specific observations: 1) CIA/NSA are not part owners in those companies, and that's a very significant difference from how TikTok exists, where Bytedance is a CCP controlled organization and is part owner in the subsidiary that operates in the US; and 2) My hostility to TikTok is an extension of my hostility to Meta et al.

Eventually our discussion will horseshoe and we'll end up saying basically the same thing. These companies are all terrible, but the specific defense of TikTok will remain bizarre to me, because when you admit that Facebook can influence or tip elections you have to also admit that TikTok can do this too. And it's reasonable to ban it because it's controlled by a power that has publicly stated it wishes to harm the United States.

>I have no doubt it is clear to you, but the term for that is 'bias'.

It is not "bias" to point out that there is a difference between putting dissenters in prison camps and what the US did to Assange. Both are bad, but to imagine these things as the same is a bridge too far for me.

Reproductive health laws and book bans in the USA notwithstanding. And we wonder why faith in institutions is plummeting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...

How many other extraordinary practices without a legal framework does the US government have?

Biden chose to have private intelligence groups monitor social media because they circumvent people's rights. What other rights do they abuse?

I'm genuinely trying to think of a good-faith argument for why Chinese tech firms are less trustworthy than American tech firms, but I honestly can't think of one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

But absolutely agreed -- as a user, I can't trust any of these governments or companies. The only things I do trust are E2EE services that don't collect unnecessary personal data in the first place.

I'm from the United States and I want this app banned. While the things you cite are or could be bad, it's entirely irrelevant to dealing with an app that is demonstrably a psychological control system. You're upset that CIA or US Army spec ops kidnapped people from your country? Imagine the United States injecting a social media system into your country that brainwashes people into thinking that they deserved it. TikTok can do this.

I agree with the poster before, I don't see the big difference here

You admit that social media is bad and increases suicide rates, yes? Okay great, seems logical then to ban the app that's run by a country that has set out to actively degrade the country the app is deployed in.

Here's how I know that TikTok is some sort of psyop: it's an entirely separate app in China. The algorithm does different things, explicitly. I don't know why people are so hostile to the idea that finally we've found a capitalistic company that should be punished for exploiting people. That Meta and Google behave badly is entirely irrelevant, and you and everyone else doing the same whataboutism dance knows it.

I honestly don't care. I don't use either and actively dislike all of these echo chambers. If it's for me ban all of them, or let them get even worse I don't care. It doesn't influence me at all.

But this is just a shitshow, cold war on a weird social level. This is not against tiktok this is obviously mainly a topic to talk bad about China.

Can you explain that a bit more? Of course it's going to behave differently. Any serious multinational is going to tailor their offerings to local preferences. A McDonald's in India sells a significantly different menu than one in Indiana. As for it being a seperate app rather than clicking a country flag during onboarding or whatever, I can see plenty of reasonable technical reasons for that.

I'd think they probably have even more freedom than most players to do so, because they didn't have to play to significant established brand expectations on arrival.

LOL! Please reread thus again until you lol too :D