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Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by lionkor on Friday March 17, 2023 @08:57AM (#35196486)
For me, its mostly that I have used GPT-3.5 a little for programming C++, and I wasnt impressed.

For one, it made horrible, glaring mistakes (like defining extern functions which dont exist, using functions which are specific to a platform im not using, etc.), stuff beginners would do.

It also decided to sneak in little issues, such as off-by-one errors (calling write() with a buffer and a size that is off by one in a place where its very hard to tell), missing edge cases (such as writing a C++ concept which worked, but actually did everything in slightly the wrong way to actually ensure the concept was requiring exactly what I asked).

Even when asked to correct these mistakes, it often struggled, made me read paragraph after paragraph of "im sorry, ive been such a bad little machine" garbage, and didnt even correct the issue (or, in some cases, introduced new bugs).

Im utterly unimpressed by this. GPT is great for a lot of things, but not writing code better than I would, in the same time.

The time it took me to massage it to solve a nontrivial problem (write hello world with just syscalls) was way longer than reading the manual and writing it myself (and has less bugs).

Not everyone unfazed by these articles is simply in denial. I feel sorry for people who write copy paste code and find that ChatGPT or Clippy from 2000 can relace them, but not everyone writes trivial code.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by woeirua on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:06AM (#35197236)
Two points: GPT4 is significantly better in this regard, and you should be concerned about the rate of progress more than it’s actual capabilities today.
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by Jeff_Brown on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:29AM (#35197584)
Kind of agree?

On the one hand we don't even have a roadmap toward reliable AI.

On the other, if we ever plug an LLM into something that has memory, acquires experiences, does experiments, observes the outcome and adjusts its worldview in response, consciousness might fall out of that. And writing good code might not even require consciousness.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by flatline on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:07PM (#35199863)
Epistemologically speaking, I think we can roughly break down the potential nature of consciousness into three categories:

- as a function of an independent human soul

- as the fundamental substrate on which the rest of the universe is built

- as a byproduct/secondary phenomenon of physical processes

In the latter two cases I believe that the question of whether GPT is conscious is immaterial. In either case it is functioning in the same medium we all are when we talk, think, write. In the first case it is not, and the question is thornier.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by Jeff_Brown on Friday March 17, 2023 @03:35PM (#35201773)
Consciousness in this context is often used as an imprecise but important bundle of very material concepts, including whether something can have wants (and therefore warrants our anticipation of them) and whether it deserves ethical status.

One can debate whether either those is necessarily a consequence of consciousness, but nonetheless those kinds of qualities are what people are aiming at when they wonder about conscious AI.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by grantcas on Saturday March 18, 2023 @02:46PM (#35211925)
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first.

What I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.

I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.

My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by blibble on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:10AM (#35198055)
I suspect (and sort of hope) they're close to hitting a local maxima

presumably they've already fed it all the code in the world (including a load they probably aren't licensed to)

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by WinstonSmith84 on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:44PM (#35199484)
If you tried GPT4, you probably understood it's not about feeding all the code in the world. GPT4 analyzes and "understands" your code and will answer based on this. Clearly, it will read the variable names and make deductions based on this. It will actually read the comments, the function names and make decisions based on this. And it knows the rules of the language. I mean, I'm writing this because this is what I've witnessed since the time I spent playing with it.

The problem I've seen is that, maybe like the author has been writing, it's making sh*t up. That's not untrue, sometimes I didn't give it all dependent classes and it tried to think sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly what those were (such as method signatures, instance members, etc.) I wish it would have asked me some details rather than trying to figure things out. The guys at OpenAI have still a lot to do, but the current status is very impressive

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by blibble on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:02PM (#35199803)
it is entirely about feeding it all the code in the world

it doesn't understand anything, it doesn't make deductions

it's a probability model, and I understand how it's implemented perfectly well, thank you

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by og_kalu on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:39PM (#35201092)
No you obviously don't lol
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by travisjungroth on Friday March 17, 2023 @06:36PM (#35203803)
Even view it as a simple probability model, you don’t need a million Python repos. The massive amount of English text + 1,000 repos + your codebase is very powerful. You can see this because you can make up a language, give it some examples and it’s surprisingly good.
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by zarzavat on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:18PM (#35205417)
Does a chess engine “understand” the position? If you define “understanding” as the ability to think like a human then Stockfish is obviously much worse at that. If you define understanding as the ability to choose the correct move, then Stockfish understands the position much better than any human.

The point being, you can choose to laden the word “understand” with the meaning of human-like thinking, in which case humans will always be superior by definition. Or you can choose a “many ways to Rome” definition of understanding that is purely focused on results.

Large language models understand language in their own way. Currently their results are inferior to humans’ but one day the results may be superior.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by spaceman_2020 on Friday March 17, 2023 @02:55PM (#35201319)
Don't you think it's going to improve much more now that it has hundreds of billions of pointed queries being typed into it every month?

This is data at a scale OpenAI did not have access to before.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by grantcas on Saturday March 18, 2023 @11:08PM (#35215619)
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first.

What I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.

I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.

My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by antegamisou on Friday March 17, 2023 @11:01AM (#35197965)
My thoughts exactly.

There are so many non-CRUD complex disciplines involving programming such as signal processing, robotics, control theory, scientific computation to name a few, the current version, at least, of GPT is not even close to being a good supplement, let alone a substitute.

But then I remember I'm on HN where the technical pinnacle of programming is Backend and DevOps.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by AverageDude on Friday March 17, 2023 @08:13PM (#35204618)
Yup. It kept suggesting me properties in flyway (Java lib) which doesn’t exist. It actually threw me of the track and I made a mental note of programming without GPT.
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by WinstonSmith84 on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:37PM (#35199388)
GPT4 is very different from 3.5. I've asked it today to write some unit tests given the code of the class (~200 lines) and the methods I wanted to cover and it did that just perfectly. It put asserts where it made sense (without me asking to do it), and the unit test code was better written than some code I've seen written by (lazy) humans. It's not perfect sure and it's easy to get a bad response but give OpenAI a few more iterations and my job will be simply to copy paste the requirement to GPT and paste the generated code back to compile.
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by lionkor on Friday March 17, 2023 @03:00PM (#35201391)
what kind of unit tests are these? is it `check_eq(add(1, 2), 3)` or "check for possible exceptions, cover edge cases, test extremes of this super important db function"
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by WinstonSmith84 on Friday March 17, 2023 @04:26PM (#35202428)
It's Salesforce unit tests, written in Apex, actually a niche language, so it's surprising that even on such a language, it was so good. And no, the unit tests were much more complex than this. It involves creating records, querying data, some business logic runs and then the data is updated. The asserts are after, checking that the business logic performed correctly.

The bot created the whole unit test involving the creation of data with test fields, then queried the output results and put some asserts. That's more than 100 lines of code which were written by GPT4. A (good) Salesforce developer would need a good 30 minutes to write those, and the result would not have been better.

Again, I also have some counter examples were it made some mistakes, but this is really shocking how... a program... figured all this out.

Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by iakgk on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @05:03AM (#35243964)
write addition python code
Re:Can GPT-4 *Actually* Write Code? by intalentive on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:39PM (#35199421)
A Toolformer model integrated with Intellisense is the obvious next step.