News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:51AM (#35093256)
Maybe $70B in credit but there is no way anyone is going to redeem that much in real currency. The money is not there. Some folks will lose. Everyone knows it. Who will be the losers.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by proto-n on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:57AM (#35093296)
I think you have the wrong mental model about market caps. Market cap going down by $70B does not mean that $70B has been withdrawn.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by gizmo on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:10AM (#35093399)
The crypto market cap is about 1 trillion USD. Now suppose all current crypto holders want to exchange their crypto for dollars. How many dollars do they get, collectively? The market cap is 1 trillion, but for them to get dollars somebody else has to put up those dollars in exchange for the crypto. And that's a problem, because everybody who thinks crypto is a good idea is already in crypto, which means there is no sizable group of people to sell into.

If all current Apple shareholders decide to get rid of Apple an inflow of 2.5 trillion is needed. The new group of shareholders will like Apple less than the current group of shareholders, so the stock would get sold at a slight discount (10% maybe). The universe of investors who are willing to buy Apple shares at a discount is enormous, so it's fine.

With crypto, not so much. The first 100bn you might be able to sell to people at a reasonable discount, but then you're out of buyers for sure. So who are the holders of the remaining 900bn worth of crypto going to sell to? How big of a discount do they need to offer to get the dollars they want? 30%? 60%? 99%?

With crypto the market cap is an illusion because when people sell crypto en masse the price will trend towards the intrinsic value (which is zero). That's what the parent means with "The money is not there. Some folks will lose. Everyone knows it."

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by senttoschool on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:24AM (#35093512)
This is called having "intrinsic value".

In the event that all Apple shareholders want to sell, there will still be a market for it because Apple produces goods and will do share buy backs and give dividends. There will be a discount like you said, but the intrinsic value is there.

There is no intrinsic value in bitcoin or 99% of crypto.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by Lapsa on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:49AM (#35093711)
Crypto has intrinsic value. It provides named globally immutable lists. As they can be named anything you like and may or may not enforce additional whatnot rules - it leads to a lot of confusion (gr8 4 crooks).
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by frankreyes on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:06AM (#35093866)
> This is called having "intrinsic value".

It should be clear by now that the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is the USD.

Because the only practical problem it solves is to bridge USD to USD transactions as USD-BTC-USD.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by Veen on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:06AM (#35093355)
I think they are arguing that the market cap is a fantasy number anyway. It went down by a theoretical $70 billion, but that number (and the market cap) is meaningless because it's not possible to convert large amounts of BTC to fiat without collapsing the market, assuming the exchanges will let you and that they have the fiat reserves to do so, which is highly doubtful.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by culturestate on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:18AM (#35093463)
> assuming the exchanges will let you and that they have the fiat reserves to do so, which is highly doubtful

If you’re trying to sell off several tens of millions of dollars of BTC, you don’t go to an exchange - you go to an investment bank. Goldman will happily run that for you.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by Veen on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:26AM (#35093528)
Then Goldman has more faith in the future value of BTC than seems warranted.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by smcl on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:05AM (#35093352)
Not necessarily. It sounded to me like they were dismissing the idea that there was anything to that original value and that there's nothing "lost" because there just doesn't exist $70bn of demand for BTC
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by mrweasel on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:55AM (#35093279)
This may just be me being cynical, but any attempt to convert any significant about of Bitcoins to anything real will collapse the price further.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by FollowingTheDao on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:05AM (#35093351)
No, you are not cynical, you are spot on. Crypto gains are worth nothing until you change it into currency. The same is true for stock gains.

Crypto gains only were people imagining money into existence. This is the problem of going off the gold standard.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by senttoschool on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:27AM (#35093530)
>No, you are not cynical, you are spot on. Crypto gains are worth nothing until you change it into currency. The same is true for stock gains.

Actually, stocks are slightly different. Because stocks are based on an underlying real company producing real services and goods, it's worth something even if you don't sell it. This is because stocks can pay dividends or do buy backs.

Crypto does not pay dividends or do buy backs. If they do, they should be classified as a security.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by FollowingTheDao on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:49AM (#35093710)
> Because stocks are based on an underlying real company producing real services and goods

No, they are not. Stocks prices are solely based on their supply and demand in the market. Products and services may play a role in the demand fro the stock, but they are not the sole determinate of price. Take AMC for example...

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by wyatt_dolores on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:46AM (#35094246)
Stocks do have a natural lower bound which is the actual value of the company.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by FollowingTheDao on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:35AM (#35095680)
Are you saying Bitcoin can go negative?
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by chollida1 on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:55AM (#35095983)
it's possible if the carrying cost of BTC is positive.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by medvezhenok on Friday March 10, 2023 @12:09PM (#35097362)
The total stock of a company, yes. Your particular share - not necessarily. You could get diluted to pretty much nothing if the company chooses to issue more shares.

Shareholders can usually push back via voting, but depending on the way the company is setup they could still successfully dilute smaller shareholders.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by senttoschool on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:50AM (#35094280)
Stock prices are based on supply and demand.

But a stock is the ownership of a company, which produces goods and services.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by HPsquared on Friday March 10, 2023 @07:12AM (#35093412)
The same is true for any asset, including gold or real estate.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by mrweasel on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:59AM (#35094347)
Gold does have real world applications, you can build stuff with it, but yes, if only using in electronics the price would crash. Real estate, depending one the type can generate money by being utilized, it doesn't need to be traded as such.
Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by ashwagary on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:09AM (#35094452)
>but yes, if only using in electronics

>it doesn't need to be traded as such.

Only a small percentage of sellers can convert an asset into the current dollar price in any market, regardless of where the underlying is used.

This is true for every asset. Once supply outpaces demand, price moves down.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by tomputer on Friday March 10, 2023 @12:16PM (#35097523)
This is exactly what makes Bitcoin a fantastic store of value. Bitcoin supersedes gold because compared to gold, it has no other use.

If Bitcoin would be used as a store of value instead of gold, gold can be used for other material purposes for a lower price. The same goes for real estate. A house does not have to be an investment asset or store of value. If (institutional) investors would use Bitcoin instead of housing, it could make housing affordable again. Or at least result in more fair/realistic housing market instead of the propped up market from the last few years.

Compared to gold and real estate, Bitcoin is a scarce asset that can easily be divided into small pieces. It has a liquid market and can be exchanged 24/7 anywhere in the world.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by jfengel on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:03AM (#35094393)
"Market cap" is always a dubious number, even for something like stocks that do represent an actual underlying asset. It's extrapolating the last trade (or last few trades) to the entire set, and that's not realistic. A market capacity can drop millions of billions with just $1 changing hands.

The number isn't completely worthless. Most of the time, you're not thinking about liquidating the entire thing all at once. The actual total number isn't all that important, but the way it changes is informative -- it accurately captures what happens at the margins.

Crypto is weird in that the entire thing genuinely can collapse at a moment's notice. Unlike a stock, there's no real-world asset anywhere, just the consensual agreement. Even a fiat currency at least has the force of a government collecting taxes and paying wages.

The market cap is a useful number so long as nobody expects to actually realize it. When you actually could realize it, like a currency collapsing, you have to unpack the full meaning of it and realize that it's very different.

Re:More than $70B wiped off crypto market in 24 hours as BTC... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:19PM (#35102682)
Funny that replies discuss the term "market cap"(italization). It is mentioned nowhere in the article. Is this even an appropriate term to apply to "cryptocurrency". Traditionally it has been used to refer to companies. Putting aside the untrustworthiess of the sources of crypto "market cap" data, what, or should we say "who", exactly is being capitalised. SBF was one of many.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-programmer-at-the-center-of...