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Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by 1-6 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:06AM (#35068520)
Example: We cannot use master/slave in code.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by smcl on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:32AM (#35068754)
Most organizations have some document describing acceptable coding standards that cover things like whitespace/indentation, brackets, idioms and naming conventions.

It is so bizarre how many people draw the line at master/slave - it's just another convention, why on earth are they desperate to write these two specific words above all else? Why is "don't use verbs in your REST routes" ok but "don't use master/slave" a cause to get on your soapbox and cry about human rights being impeded?

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by noduerme on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:41AM (#35068834)
For me personally it's offensive because master and slave don't, never did, and never will, specifically refer to a single culture's experience - and that the idiocy of identifying the technical use of those terms with racism could itself only come from a racist mind.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by poszlem on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:44AM (#35068872)
It it bizarre? If I told you that your use of the word "most" is racists, would you agree and stop using it? What if I told you that your use of the word "things" is racist? Obviously my overreaction to those words is my problem not yours and you should not stop using them.

The reason people draw the line here is because to many people these words CLEARLY have nothing to do with race and "oppression". They never have. And yet now somehow YOU made them "dirty".

It is a common occurrence where a group of activists deem something as forbidden, create a commotion around it that intimidates those who comply solely out of fear, ultimately leading to that something being considered "bad" because only those who don't mind disregarding social norms continue to use it. This is not a natural process but a hostile takeover.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by smcl on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:54AM (#35068968)
Dude write "slave" in your code all you want, I don't care. Your dev lead might though, you can have that fight with them.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by poszlem on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:28AM (#35069318)
I think the best summary of this thread is you addressing me using another "problematic" word "dude" that made it into multiple of the "forbidden words" lists.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by smcl on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:36AM (#35069425)
There is an enormous difference in standards and expectations for language in professional or academic settings and random internet message boards.

But I agree - you stumbling around in clown shoes, failing to understand the issue you're hopping mad about is a great summary.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by noduerme on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:59AM (#35069021)
> a group of activists deem something as forbidden, create a commotion around it that intimidates those who comply solely out of fear

This used to be called a "slave mentality". It's a pretty useful expression these days.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:33AM (#35068762)
Some people really want master and slave on the whitelist again instead of the inferior blacklist so badly.

Words do matter, which is why my statement above seems so off.

Words convince people to join cults and go to war. Words shape and direct the formation of new ideas.

Words have and help preserve power.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by noduerme on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:46AM (#35068888)
>> instead of the inferior blacklist

Words do have power, but this sort of thing misunderstands the type of power they have. Words have power when used for persuasion. Banning the words does nothing to change the persuasive power of people who would use language to convince other people to do evil things. It only takes away the power of ordinary people to transmit the truths they see and hear. Stripping language is, in itself, evil; and juxtaposing words like "inferior blacklist" - a phrase that never existed - as if it were a brilliant example proving the racism of the second word in the phrase, shows only a misunderstanding of both the nature of racism and the nature of language.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:54AM (#35068969)
> Words have power when used for persuasion.

Words used for persuasion on a large enough scale become imbued with a default associated meaning.

> Banning the words does nothing to change the persuasive power of people who would use language to convince other people to do evil things.

Do you really believe there is no power in words being repeated? Do you not believe that the real racists are bothered by not being able to espouse their usual rhetoric freely?

Much more annoyed than the free- speech advocates in this thread whose group definitely has no overlap with the real racists.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by noduerme on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:07AM (#35069092)
> real racists are bothered by not being able to espouse their usual rhetoric freely

I don't think they're particularly bothered; they espouse their rhetoric either way. And if you take away some words, they quickly find others. I haven't seen the changing of the language in the past 40 years to be particularly effective at stemming their racism or their ability to persuade. If anything, the US has become more racist in my lifetime, despite the many many iterations of politically correct revisionist speech. Again, it's a form of hubris and foolishness to believe that you can change thoughts by changing words.

> Words used for persuasion on a large enough scale become imbued with a default associated meaning.

This is the definition of a racist way of thinking. If you watched Hitler's speeches and heard him say that Jews are dirty enough times, would you believe it? Would you associate "Jew" with "dirt"? Because many people heard those words thousands of times and didn't believe it. If you're afraid you would believe it, then you are the problem, not the word "Jew" or the word "dirt".

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @10:27AM (#35070149)
> I don't think they're particularly bothered;

No, they are. They complain about censorship all the time.

They made an entire strategy because of their annoyance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

> they espouse their rhetoric either way.

Yes, but then they get fired and complain

> The real problem isn't I called my coworker the N-word, it's that '"Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat.

Without the list to point to, they may not be fired. Less repercussions to bad actions, mean they feel more free to spew their racist rhetoric.

> I haven't seen the changing of the language in the past 40 years to be particularly effective at stemming their racism or their ability to persuade.

See the usage of "boy" when referring to Black men diminishing over the years because it became less acceptable.

> If you watched Hitler's speeches and heard him say that Jews are dirty enough times

If you are a 12 year old in school learning about the holocaust, the anti-wokeness educators are neutrally presenting hitler, and you don't personally know any Jews... you don't have effective tools in your environment to hedge against making that association.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by depressedpanda on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:02PM (#35072433)
> inferior blacklist

There's nothing inferior about a blacklist. Often, it's way more useful than a whitelist.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by yieldcrv on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:09AM (#35068545)
speaking of which, my git client on my computer makes master branches, while github wants to use main branch. its a little annoying, I would be open to switching my git client to do main by default, how do I do that? I'll look it up now that I've typed it out

edit: the answer https://superuser.com/a/1572156

git config --global init.defaultBranch main

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by a2800276 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:19AM (#35068635)
Out of curiosity, how did this affect you? This is only an issue the very first time you set up a repo, no? As soon as you push 'master' to an empty GitHub project, that becomes the default branch. And if you clone a repo there is no expectation from the local git that a branch with any particular name exists. What am I missing?
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by smcl on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:39AM (#35068820)
You're missing nothing, it's a non-issue. You can use master or main and neither git nor GitHub care, employers might have some guidelines but they generally have a bunch of things like coding conventions, codes of conduct or other office policies designed to make workplaces somewhere you can actually work without, for example, worrying about colleagues saying racist or sexist shit
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by yieldcrv on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @10:54AM (#35070560)
Affect? I just like congruence.

I often use the push instructions that a new empty github project prompts, and do it frequently enough that I want my system defaults to match those instructions.

Its not important to me to know that my system could overwrite those instructions successfully because "master" or whatever my local branch is called can be written into the command line. Its not important to me that "main" is a contrived replacement for "master".

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by MontyCarloHall on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:20AM (#35068644)
Ironically, stuff like this only makes tech less inclusive to marginalized newcomers. Some impoverished kid trying to teach themself git won’t be able to follow as easily any git tutorial out there that refers to the “master” branch.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:36AM (#35068785)
That's the short term view, assuming it's even true. What about in 10 years where the git tutorials all say "main"?
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by MontyCarloHall on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:12AM (#35069144)
I’ve actually worked with a couple tech newcomers who encountered this very issue, one of whom happened to be black.

They took no offense at the term “master,” but were extremely frustrated by how copying and pasting commands from git tutorials would often not work. As a simple example,

  $ git clone [email protected]:username/test.git
  Cloning into 'test'...
  remote: Enumerating objects: 3, done.
  remote: Counting objects: 100% (3/3), done.
  remote: Total 3 (delta 0), reused 0 (delta 0), pack-reused 0
  Receiving objects: 100% (3/3), done.
  $ cd test
  $ touch foo
  $ git add foo
  $ git commit -m "my commit"
  [main f00f00d] my commit
   1 file changed, 0 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
   create mode 100644 foo
  $ git push origin master # as a tutorial might advise
  error: src refspec master does not match any
  error: failed to push some refs to 'github.com:username/test.git'
That person absolutely despised using git because of its complexity. Git is indeed extremely complicated, and microannoyances like this do not make things any easier.

In 10 years, it’s likely that there will still be some repos with the principal branch called “master” and some with it called “main,” so confusion will still exist. But even if all repos and tutorials were magically switched over to “main” in 10 years’ time, the net result would be several years’ worth of newbie developers experiencing a slew of microannoyances, with zero upside. There is no evidence that a branch called “master” caused widespread harm, but there is plenty of evidence that further complicating an already complex system was harmful to some degree.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by a2800276 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:44AM (#35069515)
The problem with that argument is that it would prevent _any_ improvements to git that don't correspond to outdated documentation.

You could just as well argue that the changed name of the default branch is one of very many things that make git difficult for beginners to learn and having bumped into it early taught a valuable lesson that branch names in git are arbitrary.

Something that took me a longer than I care to admit to figure out.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ToValueFunfetti on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @10:25AM (#35070124)
Part of the argument identifies a harm to making changes to git, which is true for any changes to git that break existing documentation. I would hope that git maintainers are considering that when deciding about making any changes. But the other part of the argument is that the benefit is too small (or nonexistant) to outweigh the harm, which is not true in all cases.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by ParetoOptimal on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @10:20AM (#35070053)
> taught a valuable lesson that branch names in git are arbitrary.

Agreed. Seeing this in the tutorial (if it hasn't already been updated as such) would be great:

> Branch names are arbitrary, but for convenience a default of 'main' is provided. There's nothing special about 'main'.

Of course I'd double check they really are arbitrary for all contexts before adding the above since I'm not 100% confident it's true.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by a2800276 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:55AM (#35071434)
It's arbitrary save that a default value (i.e. "master") exists that is used if none is provided to 'git init' when the repo is first created. That default name is configurable, e.g. to 'trunk' if you like things confusing: `$ git config --global init.defaultBranch trunk`

The name 'origin' for the remote repository that you originally cloned from is likewise arbitrary. There is nothing magical about `git push origin master`. You could name your remote "my_github_account" and do `git push my_github_account trunk`.

This knowledge becomes essential if you're synch'ing with several remote repos. OTOH, knowing that these are arbitrary names and not part of the command make it more obvious that it's _possible_ to have multiple remotes in the first place.

But it comes at the cost of making life more difficult for authors of tutorials designed to get people to memorize difficult git commands without understand what they do.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by wdroz on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:14AM (#35069163)
You are assuming that all the new tutorials will say main.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by a2800276 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:01PM (#35071540)
I'd sure hope the tutorial gets updated, if that's what the git team decide to change the default to. The people running the main git documentation site seem to do a pretty good job of keeping up to date, though, so I'm optimistic.

This would sort itself out pretty quickly, though. Different aspects of git's usage are constantly changing and any tutorial that doesn't keep up to date would be irrelevant sooner or later.

Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by a2800276 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:15AM (#35068587)
Example of what? Is this being mandated by your organization's administration? Count yourself lucky working with an administration that gives a shit about version control.
Re:“Forbidden-Word” Lists Are a Symptom of Administrative Bloat by hotpotamus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:05AM (#35069075)
I remember as a kid learning to install IDE drives and hearing master/slave was pretty weird to me. I suppose I more or less got used to it.