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Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @06:54PM (#34990066)
It's exciting to read about new discoveries like this. It suddenly sheds light on my own lived experience, confirming what has always felt true, and I hope new treatments will come from this.

I've been on a long term therapy journey for C-PTSD stemming from childhood trauma, and there's a part me that has always felt like I should be past all of that now that I'm some decades beyond that environment. There's part of your brain that tells you it's your problem, and won't accept that the mindset was deeply embedded before you even understood what was going on, or that other modes of existence are possible.

The built-in pessimism has served me well in some professional capacities, but when this permeates all aspects of thinking, things do not go well in the long run.

I'm on a much better path now, and meditation/yoga/some useful parts of Buddhist philosophy (and a really good therapist) are opening my eyes to new ways of thinking.

But it has been a long and often painful journey.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by 300bps on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @07:50PM (#34990505)
Someone on HN many years ago recommended the book, “Learned Optimism” and said it was life-changing for them.

Read it, did the work. It was life changing. Seven years now with 0 anxiety after decades of having moderate to severe anxiety.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by hirvi74 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @08:06PM (#34990623)
I think I might purchase this book. I have seen it mentioned on here a few times before.

If you do not mind, how did the book actually help you? Obviously, please do not feel obligated to answer if you are uncomfortable. I personally have found therapy to be nothing more than a substantial waste of time and money with perhaps a dash of cathartic release.

Before anyone suggests that I need to "find the right one." I've seen around 14 different providers in about 12 years -- just doesn't work for me.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by Kye on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @09:31PM (#34991183)
One advice I've heard is to learn about the different types of therapist and focus on finding one whose method (and there are a lot!) clicks with you. It's very possible all of those 14 providers used methods that didn't work for you.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @09:41PM (#34991257)
* * *
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by hirvi74 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:05PM (#34991873)
I have been somewhat exposed to various Buddhist teachings through various lectures. I am a huge fan Alan Watts, and I have watched almost every video on Youtube from the content creator Dr. K/Healthygamer.gg (person/channel name). I like a lot of what I have heard, and I have tried to implement some of it in my life.

I would not consider myself well versed in the practices by any means though. I will try to check out the book you mentioned as well. Hopefully, there is an audiobook version, that would be a huge help.

I am so happy that mediation has been beneficial to you. From practitioners of mediation, I have heard nothing but positive reviews. I really want to do it, and I have tried on multiple occasions, but I seriously cannot physically sit still long enough to do it. Trust me, I want to be a Jedi. Nothing would be cooler than that.

I have severe ADHD, and it makes things like reading books, mediating, and even therapy really difficult (amongst everything else). Of course, I am treated for it, but treatment is like drinking alcohol for depression. Sure, it kind of works in some ways, but it has its own world of problems.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by bravura on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:09AM (#34993646)
"treatment is like drinking alcohol for depression. Sure, it kind of works in some ways, but it has its own world of problems." This does read as learned helplessness to me, a sympathetic stranger on the internet.

I encourage you to try a therapist listing "trauma" as a key area of interest. Regardless of your ADHD diagnosis. See haswell and my comments above. This is from someone who has had six or seven therapists and only two were effective. (Guess what those two had in common...)

Much love.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by hirvi74 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:53AM (#34994673)
Seriously, thanks for the all the advice. You might be on to something.

I'll contact my insurance tomorrow and see what they can find me lol.

Thank you again, and much love back.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by 300bps on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:28PM (#34999680)
The book teaches you the qualities of a pessimist vs an optimist.

For example, a pessimist thinks anything good that happens to them is temporary and impersonal. And they think that anything bad that happens to them is permanent and personal. An optimist is the opposite of that.

So if something good happens, a pessimist will think, “I just got lucky this time. I can’t count on good things happening in the future.” An optimist thinks, “of course I was able to make something good happen! Good things often happen for me.”

Then he teaches you a method similar to cognitive behavioral therapy to record and then dispute your negative thoughts on paper. I followed it for about 5 months and it honestly rewired my brain dramatically for the better.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by tapanjk on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:46AM (#35029140)
Thank you for this book recommendation. I read the book in the last two days and I am glad that I have a fresh perspective on this subject matter. Next step: do the work. Thanks again.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by thinkingkong on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @08:06PM (#34990634)
Hey that mirrors quite a bit of my own journey. Are there any specific kinds of yoga, meditation, or modalities of therapy that have had an outsized impact on your progress?
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by meisterwerk_app on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @08:22PM (#34990735)
I could recommend Sam Harris and his “Waking Up” App. Starting meditation practice with him has changed my life. You can check the app out here - https://dynamic.wakingup.com/shareOpenAccess/SC4545206
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @09:34PM (#34991208)
For one, having a trauma-aware therapist made a huge impact on my early progress. I specifically sought this out, and switched therapists to find the person I currently work with. Standard talk therapy with elements of CBT, but trauma-awareness was the difference between me melting down in session and not.

I've been using the same Waking Up app mentioned in the sibling comment. I started going down a bit of a rabbit hole on consciousness awhile back, and eventually that led me to Sam Harris, and his book "Waking Up" was a bit of a gateway for me. I then started using the app, which is like taking everything you read about in the book and having it carefully presented to you bit by bit as you go through the practice. It's the first app that actually made meditation make sense to me, and the results have been life changing for me. It's mindfulness meditation also known as Vipassana, or "seeing things as they really are".

Regarding Yoga, I've been using the "Yoga with Adriene" channel on YouTube. I'm not very experienced with this yet, but taking one of her 30 day journeys was a great way to get into it. I could feel my body get stronger bit by bit, and my awareness of the sensations in my body (something I've struggled with due to repressed trauma) has improved significantly.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by bravura on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:03AM (#34993607)
For ANYONE seeking a good therapist and bewildered by the options, I also suggest to start with a (licensed) therapist with a specialty in trauma. Even if you don't think you have trauma.

A typical therapist is almost zero-impact, you breeze through pre-prepared scripts and they nod and smile and you leave and back-pat and pay a bill. By typical, I mean in the center of the bell-curve. According to my lived experiences, and that of close friends.

A therapist with impact will sit and listen and smile, and then they'll simply repeat something you said or ask an innocent question or laugh, and this small gesture will cause a satori-like awareness of what was previously invisible to you.

I've never found a trauma-aware therapist incapable of reaching out and touching you deeply. This is the "I have rust on my resume, even if you don't code rust" of the therapist world.

[edit: If it needs to be said plainly, run like hell from any unlicensed practitioner who focuses on trauma.]

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by prox on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:59AM (#34993953)
This I agree with. I found someone who was bring into my awareness the difference between the old and new so I could viscerally feel it throughout my system, which made it complete and it felt truly like something had healed.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by patrickscoleman on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:47PM (#34992120)
I worked with a somatic therapist who was a former monk and we’d do meditations from time to time during sessions (although it was mostly talk therapy). Helped a ton!
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by omayomay on Thursday March 02, 2023 @03:57AM (#34993572)
Hi, my 2 cents: it does not matter what kinds of yoga or types of therapy at this stage. Find a good therapist, find a yoga/meditation and/or exercise that you can follow regularly. that's it. We like to think about oh CBT is better on my anxiety, but EMDR is better on my Trauma, hey yoga nidra is better but vipassana is more comprehensive etc. these are overthinking, our brain is doing this for a cheap dopamine shots. Start somewhere, do regularly. thats all.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by paufernandez on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:23AM (#34994497)
I think this is very good advice.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Thursday March 02, 2023 @07:44AM (#34994971)
I appreciate the spirit of this comment, but I have to disagree on a few key points.

The kind of meditation is very important. There are some meditation practices that therapists urge people with trauma history to avoid, and Vipassana is the specific type of meditation that is recommended because of the clarifying nature of the practice. This is the type of meditation that has been subject to studies with positive outcomes.

Other forms of concentration practice may be a stepping stone to Vipassana if they help someone with concentration, but can also be a gateway to less ideal experiences for someone with trauma history. It can also be a path to nowhere if you stay on these other practices without understanding the differences between them.

Regarding therapy, the type of therapy matters too, and will depend on your history. EMDR is not widely accepted as treatment for trauma, and is not for everyone. I’ve experienced the power of EMDR directly and it helped me reduce the effects of more recent events (I was in a car accident that deeply unsettled me for a time), but trying to apply therapy to other events that had even tangential connotations with my past resulted in getting completely stuck during EMDR sessions. My current therapist fully supports the use of EMDR but has cautioned me against it for complex trauma history and my personal experiences confirm that this is good advice for me.

I think the most important thing here is that YMMV and do what works for you, but be thoughtful about it and understand the key differences between available treatment.

But even though therapy modalities can vary greatly depending on your past experiences, the recommended gateway into meditation is consistently Vipassana and from what I can tell this is for a good reason. This isn’t to say other forms can’t be useful and another comment pointed out some useful resources above, but there are definitely some paths that will lead nowhere.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by brainbag on Thursday March 02, 2023 @07:11AM (#34994781)
I'm going to disagree with the sibling comment that it doesn't matter what meditation you do. I'm a scientist at heart and my science of interest is exploring things like meditation and consciousness, and have been doing it very actively for a decade. You can apply as much mysticism to it as you want, but there is nothing inherently "magical" about any of this anymore or less than there is when eating toast.

I've tried many different meditations with many different teachers and guides and books, and the ones that I have found most effective for me personally and for people that I have taught, in order of how I'd suggest them:

• Zazen is a simple but hugely impactful meditation, and you can do it anywhere with any length of time as it doesn't require "zoning out". It can be very helpful to sit to do it until you get the hang of it, though. (read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, it's an easy but meaningful read).

• the practices in The Mind Illuminated book - neuroscientist + meditator modernizes and de-mysticizes older paths. Anytime you get stuck, this is a great way to get unstuck. Find where you are in the journey, and start practicing what he suggests for where you are. It makes a big difference.

• Neti Neti meditation (any thoughts or experiences that arise in meditation, you think "not that" as in "if I can think it, I am not that"). This doesn't need any "lead in" so if you only have a couple of minutes to sit this can be a great way to be impactful during a short time.

• the Brahmavihārā https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006... this is the best practice I've found for bringing the inner work you do out into the world as a more kind and uplifting human. I think this is best done when you have a while to sit; I have found that the longer you do it in a session, the more densely it gets integrated.

Side note, if you want to explore your inner experience in a more active way, try finding a local meet up that does shamanic drumming with a guide. I know this sounds weird, but our subconscious is all about symbolism, and if you can play along it's basically a short and gentle drug-free psychedelic trip in a good setting that can be very rewarding.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by nicolapede on Thursday March 02, 2023 @10:14AM (#34996638)
> Side note, if you want to explore your inner experience in a more active way, try finding a local meet up that does shamanic drumming with a guide. I know this sounds weird, but our subconscious is all about symbolism, and if you can play along it's basically a short and gentle drug-free psychedelic trip in a good setting that can be very rewarding.

I am really intrigued by this (and I don't find it excessively weird). Would you have any material to recommend if one wants to understand how it works and why before actually trying it?

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by prometheus76 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @09:50AM (#34996321)
I also have C-PTSD, and I have tried many ways of healing that trauma, including Tai Chi, Qi Gong, sazen meditaiton, and other forms of meditation, therapy, CBT, basically, anything I can find. I am in my mid-forties, so I've been seeking for a long time.

I wasn't looking for relief from C-PTSD when I converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity about three years ago, but since I have joined that church, participating in Divine Liturgy at least once a week, and beginning and ending my day with prayer (following the techniques and patterns my priest has taught me), my whole life has been transformed. Not only my life, but the lives of my family are healing dramatically as well. I can't put it into words adequately, but the difference between my life now and just three years ago is so stark that I hardly feel like the same person.

Nothing else has even come close to the impact and depth of healing I have experienced. Other people have shared their experience with "Eastern religions", and I just wanted to share my experiences with you from another mystical tradition that isn't very familiar to most people.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by momentmaker on Thursday March 02, 2023 @10:28AM (#34996836)
checkout Kriya yoga
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by magicink81 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:18PM (#34999531)
I recommend the online courses (one of which is free) [1], and videos [2] on YouTube made by Anna Runkle, the "Crappy Childhood Fairy".

[1] https://courses.crappychildhoodfairy.com/daily-practice [2] https://crappychildhoodfairy.com/videos/

Others in the thread have recommended "The Body Keeps the Score", which I also recommend. It is available on Audible as an audiobook as well.

Other books I recommend:

"Self-Parenting: The Complete Guide to Your Inner Conversations" by John K Pollard and Linda Nusbaum.

"How to be an Adult in Relationships" by David Richo

"The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture" by Gabor Mate

"When the Body Says No" by Gabor Mate

I practice Mindful Qi Gong (healing movement + meditation) once a week as a part of a 2-hour class, as well as independently on an irregular schedule. It has helped significantly to deal with stress.

I think that for people struggling with issues like CPTSD, ignorance is the first, and largest barrier to healing / recovery / improving. We grow up and enter the adult world and often in many ways "escape" our stressful / traumatic childhoods only to start the process of creating our own trauma and stress as young adults. As we enter adulthood, we may be consciously or subconsciously masking our feelings / hide our pain / run from dealing with our emotions and issues because we want desperately to leave all that behind us. This "running away" may actually compound our problems, leading to destructive behaviors such as substance abuse. Gabor Mate, among others, presents a compelling case that the majority of the people we see on the street struggling with addictions and mental health issues may not have ended up there if they had received proper care and healing, even as adults. If only they had, perhaps, in their more lucid, clearer-thinking, younger days come to understand that they had the need and possibility for healing. The pure ignorance we have about this topic in our society is staggering, considering the widespread impact childhood trauma has on our lives.

I certainly wish someone had sat me down in my 20s and told me directly: "You had a crappy childhood, that sucks. And the effects of the trauma on your physiology and psychology may limit you for the rest of your life. However, there is good news: Now you're an adult and healing is possible."

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:21PM (#34991963)
EMDR will help if you’ve not tried it. I am assuming you have though since you mention complex ptsd.

I’ve been lucky enough to suffer from both covert and overt depression. Behind my anger is sadness and that is depression. We learn a lot of this from our parents who probably suffered similarly themselves which is a form of chronic ptsd.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by jrumbut on Thursday March 02, 2023 @12:29AM (#34992326)
I got close to nothing from EMDR.

The only thing that works for me right now is running, but it's working fairly well so hey.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theonething on Thursday March 02, 2023 @12:51AM (#34992462)
similar, any type of therapy has been a waste of time and money for me. Exercise on the other hand just makes me feel good.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Thursday March 02, 2023 @05:51AM (#34994301)
Exercise is a long term solution for sure. The act of doing vs thinking can be liberating.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by eurasiantiger on Thursday March 02, 2023 @07:26AM (#34994852)
Exercise is essentially the same as EMDR (bilateral movement) plus heroin (endorphins as in endogenous morphine peptides). Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise, otherwise you too will be a common churchgoer.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:25AM (#34995351)
Weird claims you are making.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by eurasiantiger on Friday March 03, 2023 @05:20AM (#35007825)
Not that weird. Factually correct.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by 7thzero on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:31AM (#34992708)
Similar experience here. EMDR with a practitioner who knows to apply technique was life changing for me. Shedding decades of stress, anxiety and unprocessed baggage via this technique has opened the way for further self improvement.

For anyone who has tried CBT or other traditional therapy and hasnt seen results it could be worth looking into. YMMV as I know people close to me who have dealt with similar early-life trauma and have been better served by other techiques

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Thursday March 02, 2023 @05:53AM (#34994309)
Yeah it’s a great way to reprogram the brain.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by ghusbands on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:54AM (#34994679)
EMDR is fantastic for PTSD and helps with some C-PTSD, but for a lot of people with C-PTSD, it only retraumatises, and a lot of EMDR practitioners seem unaware of this. Internal family systems can be a better choice for C-PTSD sufferers.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Thursday March 02, 2023 @07:59AM (#34995110)
I’m firmly in the “retraumatizes” camp.

EMDR felt like magic when dealing with the aftermath of a car accident, but sent me into a tailspin for any subject even tangentially related to my past.

YMMV.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:24AM (#34995334)
Weird. That sounds rare.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Thursday March 02, 2023 @11:39AM (#34998032)
Not as rare as you might think. EMDR is not widely accepted or recommended as treatment for persistent/long term complex trauma, when it is, such treatments are modified to fit a broader treatment regimen. Even then, it continues to be a controversial form of treatment for trauma.

This isn’t to say that people should not consider EMDR, but if they do, don’t just seek out an EMDR practitioner and expect a quick fix, but ensure the practitioner is trauma-aware and skilled in adapting treatment to the specific needs of patients with trauma histories, and it’s part of a broader treatment plan.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by theGnuMe on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:01PM (#34999309)
EMDR is well accepted and not controversial.

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/docs/mhp_veterans...

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by ghusbands on Thursday March 02, 2023 @02:25PM (#35000538)
You're confusing CPTSD and PTSD. Your link talks about EMDR for PTSD, not CPTSD. The post you're replying to is talking about CPTSD. They can be quite different.
Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by haswell on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:45PM (#35002526)
As the sibling pointed out, C-PTSD and PTSD are not the same thing. When EMDR is incorporated for C-PTSD, there are some aspects that are modified based on the trauma history, and some cases where EMDR cannot be attempted until dissociation issues have been addressed.

It is this need for modification and the prerequisite work (sometimes the long/hard kind of work) that makes it less clear-cut as a treatment for this form of trauma.

The EMDR practitioner I worked with made me aware of this as did my regular therapist, and most C-PTSD-aware EMDR info you can find online will also explain this distinction and the necessary modifications/prerequisites.

Re:Early-life stress can disrupt maturation of brain’s rewar... by asebold on Thursday March 02, 2023 @12:09AM (#34992239)
I recently read “the body keeps the score” and wow-ee the things we still don’t understand about the mind and body connection is crazy. Glad to see more studies diving into this type of stuff, and survivors talking about how powerful meditation/yoga and other mind-body connection therapy is for them. The more you can share your experience, the closer we are to finding valuable treatments for c-ptsd and similar trauma. Thank you.