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Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by nsteel on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:27AM (#34895070)
> reduce power consumption by up to 50%, improve performance by 30% and reduce area by 35%

To be clear, you don't get all three.

Also, are these Apple's numbers? They are better than what TSMC say (1st gen) 3nm silicon provides:

> N3 technology will offer up to 70% logic density gain, up to 15% speed improvement at the same power and up to 30% power reduction at the same speed as compared with N5 technology

https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/log...

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by jb1991 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:35AM (#34895179)
I’m curious why not? Apple Silicon so far has improved performance, and reduced power consumption. Does that mean that it’s a larger chip than the others that came before it?
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by maven29 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:44AM (#34895303)
They got there by skimping on IO
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by manmal on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @09:06AM (#34895657)
Please elaborate. IO is really not an issue in the M* machines I‘ve used - on the contrary.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by adgjlsfhk1 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @11:40AM (#34898256)
none of the M1 laptops let you use multiple external monitors and all of the M1 products have much lower limits on storage than PCs.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by dev_tty01 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @01:45PM (#34900594)
Not true. Depending upon the processor choice, M1, M1 pro, or M1 max, you get 1, 2, or 4 external monitors. Up to 64 GB ram. Do you really need more than 64 GB? The number of users who actually need more are a very small part of the market.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by jb1991 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @03:42PM (#34902368)
And the M1 Ultra even offers up to 128 GB RAM -- and that is also unified with GPU RAM.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by ihateolives on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @10:58PM (#34906581)
The price of RAM is absolutely bonkers though. If i ever need more than 16GB of RAM and more than 512GB of storage, I'll strongly consider moving back to Thinkpads or something.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by amoss on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:57AM (#34895526)
There is a trade-off between the three kinds of improvements. It is possible to pick some points (for example) that give a less than maximum power reduction as well as a less than maximum speed improvment. I think the comparison would be the Apple Silicon that they released is larger than a (hypothetical) alternative that only improved performance but kept the other two constant.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by DennisP on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @09:40AM (#34896257)
Maybe X*Y*Z=K but K increases over time. Ten years ago, we couldn't do what we can do now.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by warrenm on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @09:05AM (#34895649)
"Speed" != "Performance"

'70% logic density gain' sounds like 'reduce area by 35%' to me

The only one that might not line up is 'reduce power consumption by up to 50%' vs 'up to 30% power reduction at the same speed as compared with N5 technology'

...but you have to know what's being compared before deciding the numbers do (or don't) make sense

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by SuchAnonMuchWow on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @09:26AM (#34896021)
About the area, keep in mind that not every part of a chip is composed of dense logic:

Typically, sram (cache memories for example) doesn't scale as much as core logic, and interconnect (connections between the cores, DDR, etc...) almost don't scale at all.

This is highly dependent on the design of the SoC, but the core logic is rarely the largest of the three, so you will not see a 35% reduction of the total area of the chip: only of the areas the most densely packed with logic. What you could have for example is a 35% more powerful neural network accelerator in the same area as the previous generation. But you will not have 35% bigger cache.

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by nsteel on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @11:07AM (#34897737)
Have you seen the 3nm SRAM scaling? It's really depressing. It won't bother CPUs too much but other devices are going to struggle to scale.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by hajile on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @10:05PM (#34906208)
N3 scaling? There's literally zero scaling.

N3 is a stop-gap as TSMC is behind on their N2 GAA process. It's not so different from Intel's 14nm++++++ where it was dramatically better than before, but still not enough.

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by warrenm on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @12:08PM (#34898755)
> About the area, keep in mind that not every part of a chip is composed of dense logic

No, but improving density still makes it smaller (for an otherwise-"identical" offering) :)

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by ARandomerDude on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @11:07AM (#34897748)
> "Speed" != "Performance"

Can you elaborate?

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by warrenm on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @12:07PM (#34898737)
Sure

Start with processor pipelining, branch prediction, speculative execution, etc

Then move to multiple CPUs/CPU cores

A practically-linear program (ie hardly any unpredictable branching) can be run ~5x faster on a 5-stage-pipelined CPU than an unpipelined CPU

Liekwise, parallelizable tasks can benefit from multiple CPUs/cores, whereas non-parallelizable tasks will not (much)

And then you have performance-per-watt vs raw hertz count: today, most people seem to care more about performance-per-watt than raw "performance"

Ie, ceteris peribis, a 30w 4 core CPU at 1Ghz is going to be more favorably viewed than a 100w 6 core CPU at 1.8Ghz - you can throw 12 "low power", "slower" cores at the problem for ~10% less power draw than the "high power", "faster" cores

Then you can also look at the relative efficiency of different CPU platforms and/or microcode changes in a single platform: that was the major selling point of Apple's anti-Intel ads 15-20 years ago - the PowerPC was "faster" than the Pentium because it was "more efficient" at several families of tasks (even though the raw clock speed of the PPC was typically lower than the comparable Pentium offerings)

This comes up with the Apple M-series CPUs vs the Intel chips they replaced - they may not be "faster" (in raw ghz), but they're more performant

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by nsteel on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @01:41PM (#34900509)
* * *
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by warrenm on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @03:07PM (#34901857)
I don't read it that way - how did you come to that conclusion?
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by turnsout on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @10:02AM (#34896610)
> Also are these Apple's numbers?

Hope it's obvious, but no, they are not Apple's numbers—this is a rumor about unreleased products.

Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by nsteel on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @11:04AM (#34897685)
Bizarrely it seems the parent plucked those numbers from a Samsung 3mn press release! That's why they don't make sense in the context of TSMC 3nm. I've never had a presentation from Samsung, I guess they need to say something special.
Re:Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone... by dev_tty01 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @01:57PM (#34900780)
>To be clear, you don't get all three.

Actually you do. The branding is called FinFlex, but the upshot is that you can use different FETs for different parts of a circuit. So some critical timing bottleneck blocks could be built with performance optimized FETs and other blocks can optimize for low power.

The numbers from TSMC for N3E are +18% speed improvement at same power, -34% power reduction at same speed, and 1.7x density improvement.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmc-outlines-3nm-roadmap

>Also, are these Apple's numbers?

Ha ha. That's funny. Does Apple ever release any numbers prerelease?