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Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @12:38PM (#3480800)
Seems to me the much more likely scenario is that Timeline was created to give a better (and prettier) interface for users to access the information posted to facebook - not some kind of secret psychological advertising conspiracy.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by DevX101 on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:37PM (#3481117)
It's hard to say what facebook's intentions here without inside knowledge, but I wouldn't discount it. The founder of modern propaganda and advertising, Edward Bernays, performed many extremely subtle experiments that had dramatic shifts in how Americans behave to this day. (By the way, Bernays coined the phrase 'public relations' to replace 'propaganda' after it had been co-opted by the Nazis).

He got women to smoke by calling them 'freedom torches' and orchestrating high society women to light cigarettes in a demonstration for suffrage.

He facilitated the modern retail industry by shifting American behavior from a 'need-based' consumer to a 'want-based' consumer.

There are billions of dollars being spent to increase the effectiveness of advertising and I wouldn't be surprised if one of the world's biggest advertiser used subtle tactics to achieve this aim.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by mcphilip on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @04:41PM (#3481961)
The Century of The Self, a 4 part documentary by Adam Curtis, covers exactly what you just mentioned. Fascinating stuff, and available in its entirety on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by adamio on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:18PM (#3481342)
Google spends dollars to increase the relevance of advertising. Relevance is a means to effectiveness. Some of Google's most effective ads are relevant, text only, in the margins of pages. Propaganda and changing behaviors is a leap away from ad placement and layout online.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by gabaix on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:58PM (#3481553)
Facebook released Timeline so people want to publicize more of their life. More data = more advertising. I think business people use simple equations to justify their decisions.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by JonnieCache on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:42PM (#3481150)
Surely the entire of facebook constitutes one big "secret psychological advertising conspiracy." That sounds like a perfect description to me, if you discount the alarmist, x-files connotations of "conspiracy."

Neuromarketing is a pretty standard practice now, I don't think any of this is controversial.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by dkarl on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:10PM (#3481299)
I agree. I can't see how anyone would imagine that Facebook aren't working hard at their job, which is, in fact, delivering ads and making people click on them. Or that all that investment is spent paying smart people to have fun and sow the seeds of happiness worldwide, and every once in a while pay a little attention to the business model as an afterthought.

I would really, really appreciate it if someone could explain to me why we ever applied the term "conspiracy theory" to the common-sense assumption that a for-profit company's business decisions are motivated by (gasp, shock) profit.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @03:01PM (#3481562)
By making your users your priority you create an environment where they want to be and will continue to use your platform. Putting your users first allows you to continue to profit through means like advertisements. If you put your users second to profits you'll quickly alienate them. I tend to think consumer facing companies like Facebook and Google really do think of their users first, but perhaps I'm just naive.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by dkarl on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @06:59PM (#3482516)
I think you're contradicting yourself by saying their concern for users derives from profit and then saying they put their users "first." If acquiring and keeping users is a means to an end, namely advertising revenue, then users are secondary to advertising revenue. Is there some other dynamic in the corporation (other than profit) that drives Facebook and Google to value users? If the answer is human good will, then I can believe it has some influence in some cases, but not that it ever overrides profit. Good will can be influential where there is a sincere belief that it is the best guide to long-term profit, and I think Google's founders were fairly successful in instilling that belief in their corporate culture, but in a mass consumer business that belief will be worn down through the process of making many small decisions where the two priorities conflict.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @07:42PM (#3482643)
I think these companies view the users as the purpose and the advertising as the means - not the other way around. Both Google and Facebook were born out of an interest to improve the world and solve a problem. This idealism along with thinking long term about the product is what puts users first. I think the conflicts always tend to resolve on the side of benefiting users (ads that are relevant to a user's interest, or sponsored search results that are likely what the user is looking for anyway). The goal is to make a profit in a way that also adds utility to the user and doesn't distract from the main 'mission' of the company whatever that may be - and I don't think it is to make money.

Companies that become entirely about perpetuating their own existence, where the means of profiting becomes their purpose, seem to use nasty business practices and power to ruin competition rather than compete on product quality. They usually stagnate, alienate their users and only maintain market share by ensuring users have no other choice. I don't think this method is a good long term solution and from my perspective I don't think Facebook or Google are acting in this way (at least for now).

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by dkarl on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @09:45PM (#3482994)
I think the conflicts always tend to resolve on the side of benefiting users (ads that are relevant to a user's interest, or sponsored search results that are likely what the user is looking for anyway)

We justify advertising because so many of the products and companies we love are built on it, plain and simple. Advertising is "good" in the same sense that pollution is good: in a world without it, much of what we love wouldn't exist. The assumption that Google or Facebook ad revenue reflects value delivered to their users is extremely, extremely dubious, and I don't even see a prima facie case for it. When a rational actor spends money, that's good evidence that it is receiving value, but nobody would model a Facebook user making purchases as a rational actor. If they did, the ads would look rather different. So what basis do we have for saying that effective ads benefit users, except as a way of funding the service by extracting payment from users' attention budgets instead of from their bank accounts?

At one time, people loved seeing smokestacks belching smoke because that meant prosperity, jobs, and abundance. On HN, I think we feel the same way about ads. More effective ads on the web means more prosperity, more employment, and more products for us to enjoy.

Both Google and Facebook were born out of an interest to improve the world and solve a problem

I give credit to Google for having a corporate culture that reflects its founders, but in the long run, survival and profit are more fundamental in a corporation's hierarchy of needs. With Google we probably won't know exactly when it becomes just like AT&T or GM or any other large corporation; we'll recognize it sometime after the fact. Even in their current state, they're still a business with accountants, investors, and quarterly statements. The people who work there are ambitious and want to buy nice stuff; they get goals and reviews and promotions. All the elements that cause corporations to operate at a much lower moral level than the people they're made of are present. The corporate culture can only hold those forces back for so long.

As for Facebook, when did people start regarding them as a benevolent, well-intentioned company (distinct from their great product which really does improve the world?) I knew they were out to change the world and shape the future, but it seemed like improving the world happened as a side effect.

They usually stagnate, alienate their users and only maintain market share by ensuring users have no other choice.

First, you're describing the corporations that emerged victorious from previous great changes; don't underestimate how dominant that behavior can be. Someday, long after Google's "not evil" ethic is no longer an asset they have to lose, standard corporate tactics will be the best way for them to deliver shareholder value. And the shareholders will get their value. Second, it sounds like you're describing Facebook right now. I have Diaspora and Google+ accounts, but of course Facebook is the one I check all the time. Facebook can do almost anything to me and not lose me as a customer, for the simple reason that current social networks don't interoperate and therefore social networking accounts aren't portable from one provider to another in any meaningful way.

EDIT (abusing the edit function to reply): I agree with you that calling Facebook or any other company "malevolent" is incorrect. I think it's better to say that sometimes a company's interests are aligned with the interests of their users, and sometimes they aren't. I also agree that it looks like Google's and even Facebook's interests are aligned with their users' interests in many ways. However, that will change someday, and the very smart guys at Google and Facebook will start acting on that change of interest before we even recognize it.

Also, I really don't see it as them "tricking" us. They aren't doing anything deceitful or morally wrong. They're just doing their job, which is to deliver profitable ad clicks to the advertisers who pay them. We don't have to pretend that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts (or that their advertising is good for us) in order to respect what they do and appreciate the service they provide.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @10:59PM (#3483160)
Facebook often advertises products related to user information (merchandise from a movie for example). If it's something the user may be interested in buying they hadn't thought about but noticed from that ad, I see that as a benefit of targeted advertising. I'm not sure I understand your point about this.

As far as Google and Facebook I think they recognize that they're better off taking care of their users for long term success. I suppose you could argue this is only a temporary stance based on company culture, but I don't know if I'd agree with it.

Facebook takes a lot of heat and is often talked about on HN as this malevolent advertising company (privacy be damned), but to me this criticism always seemed overblown. I've always personally viewed them as actually trying to do what they say they're trying to accomplish. As far as the last point about Facebook being dominant, just because a company is dominant doesn't mean they're entirely about perpetuating their own existence. Facebook still rapidly makes changes and improves their platform, they also didn't do anything anti-competitive to try and destroy Google+ or Diaspora (I think Mark even donated to Diaspora).

This is all background to why I think the OP's article is unlikely. I think these companies build new features to keep their users happy and using their site, not design new features with the main purpose of secretly tricking them into more advertising. It isn't all about profit.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by gnaritas on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @03:07PM (#3481596)
Facebooks customers are the advertisers, users are just bait. If they're putting anyone first, it's the advertisers.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by jdietrich on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:39PM (#3481449)
We need to ask a simple question - what are the metrics that Facebook seek to optimise?

I can't imagine a universe in which they aren't placing at least some weight on the standard suite of "engagement" metrics. If that is the case, then they're seeking to increase the amount of time you spend on the site, the number of pages you view, the number of ads you see (and click), the frequency with which you scroll below the cut and so on.

Creating an interface that provides fast, easy access to the most relevant information means that most of your core metrics get worse. Facebook would have to be exceptionally smart and exceptionally far-sighted for their interface to do anything but get worse. They would need a corporate culture that is either centralised and vision-led, or utterly indifferent to short-term measures of engagement and profitability. Zuckerberg is a smart man, but he's not a Steve Jobs or a Larry Page.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @03:23PM (#3481654)
This reminds of a story mentioned in Steven Levy's "In The Plex". Larry and Sergey are showing off their page rank algorithm to a search engine company early on showing how much better and faster it is. The person they're showing it to is upset at how fast it is saying, "it's too good". He wanted the search to be slow so that users would be stuck on the search engine page longer and view more ads. Larry and Sergey left thinking the guy was an idiot.

I don't think it takes that much intuition to realize that treating your users well and building something for them will be better in the long run.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by dustingetz on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @10:05PM (#3483035)
big companies are good at executing established business models, and bad at discovering new ones. small companies, the opposite. it could never be any other way.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by Jimmy on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @12:46PM (#3480854)
But it's not a better and prettier interface. It's just awful. Granted, the only ads that appear on a Timeline page are in a narrow column off to the side (I didn't even know there were any ads until I specifically checked for them after reading this article), so I'm not sure how valid this conspiracy theory is. But it doesn't change the fact that Timeline looks horrible.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by randomdata on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:01PM (#3480931)
It is worth noting that every change Facebook has ever made has been deemed awful by a significant number of people. I'm not certain Facebook, or anyone for that matter, could make an update that satisfies everyone.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by alabut on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:14PM (#3480994)
You're absolutely right and it's called Baby Duck Syndrome, which you can learn about after the blackout here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_duck_syndrome

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by reason on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:26PM (#3481058)
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by slig on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:31PM (#3481085)
Just hit Esc when the Wikipedia page is loading.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:57PM (#3481548)
It's important to keep in mind the scale of Facebook's user base. At nearly 900,000,000 users upsetting 1% of the users with a change creates 9,000,000 angry people.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by noodle on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @12:58PM (#3480911)
I think its interesting how mixed the response is. I'm rather indifferent on timeline, but I've talked to designer/UI/UX people who both love it and hate it, for various reasons. Apparently different people like different things.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by padrack on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:47PM (#3481494)
Sponsored stories will begin appearing in the Timeline. That was the intent behind removing the straight chronological river (newsfeed), to be able to place ads into your stream in a way that looks more natural.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by fossuser on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @03:06PM (#3481589)
I think how it looks is subjective. I like the new look of it and how it's easy to see older content where before it was nearly impossible. I also think the idea of having these kind of communication records will be interesting later on when a younger generation can look back on someone's life experiences. Today we have very few of these kinds of records (outside of maybe some photos and letters) unless your family was very diligent about its history.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by thejteam on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:18PM (#3481339)
My thought when I first saw it: This is what a Fischer Price "My first Website" would look like.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by stevecooperorg on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @12:59PM (#3480917)
The new timeline is why I quit FaceBook in December.

It creates a badly jumbled view of the information I was really hoping to see -- what's going on with me and my friends? I can handle a straight chronological list very easily.

This is an interesting answer to the question 'why didn't they stick with the simplest approach?'

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by Timothee on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:48PM (#3481183)
As for not going with a straight chronological list, I think that really the idea behind Timeline is to take all the information that was put in Facebook and present it in something that is more akin to digital scrapbooking. They want you to have something more personal and emotional so that you're more attached to it. Their ad about it is clear about that: Facebook should be the place where you keep track of your life and expose it (a certain way) to and share it with your friends.

For that, you want to highlight a specific picture or event, but still have little anecdotes sprinkled here and there. They want you to go through the Timeline like you'd go through a photo album where you'd have a mix of the big events (graduation, marriage, births, etc.) with the little things, so that you can hear "oh, remember that one? When we went to Disneyland and you fell in the pool…", "you were so mad at him that day! Look at what you wrote on your wall…", etc.

Not having just a list makes it a bit more interesting to peruse. It's like going through a shoebox of photos and souvenirs, spread them out and you see some things, not others… I'm not saying they've nailed it, but it's a first version of it and it's an interesting experiment. It's hard to make an interesting photo album by hand, it's even harder to make something semi-automated.

As as side-note: The new timeline is why I quit FaceBook in December.

I find that interesting since I personally rarely see people's profiles or timelines.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by brlewis on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:22PM (#3481365)
Making a photo collection look interesting automatically is actually really straightforward. I think anyone who spends serious time attacking this problem will arrive at a solution.

Use the EXIF timestamp of when each photo was taken. Make a web page for each month, and group photos together by day to make it easy to skim through. Limit the number of photos shown on this page for any given day (put the rest on their own page) and you've automatically got variety. With those two simple organizational steps, viewers of the photo collection are set up for success in quickly finding photos that interest them, assuming there are some.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by glhaynes on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:55PM (#3481222)
what's going on with me and my friends

That's what your feed (i.e. the "main" page) is for, right?

The timeline is for when you want to look at just one person's activity... it's basically "WHERE user = 'xyz' ORDER BY entry_date DESC".

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by AznHisoka on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:08PM (#3480963)
Perhaps they're running out of ways to innovate and worthwhile things to do? Facebook, in its core is a very simple product. Most of the work I imagine is in making sure the servers don't crash. Sure everyone and their mom uses it, and it sounds sexy to work there, but actual work you do? Doesn't sound that complicated, cutting-edge or innovative. It's not like they're doing genetic engineering, or self driving cars.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by res0nat0r on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:23PM (#3481047)
I'm sure there will always be interesting engineering problems somewhere to work with when you have a website with 600 million users.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by slig on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:30PM (#3481079)
Figuring out how to use the fuckloads of data that they get either explicitly or via their widgets to sell more ads. Seems rather complicated.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by bmahmood on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:09PM (#3481295)
Agreed. I find it visually frustrating to read two columns simultaneously (going back/forth from left/right sides of the timeline). It's so cluttered I don't ever find myself visiting my own profile anymore.

About the only thing I use FB now for is the feed, but then Twitter serves the same function w/ better control over who I want to follow.

Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by tylermenezes on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @01:35PM (#3481107)
I'm pretty sure someone actually just saw Path and thought "that's kind of cool". (And then decided to implement it only on the web and not on the mobile.)
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by smackfu on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:29PM (#3481404)
Facebook Mobile has Timeline too, although only one column.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by k-mcgrady on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @02:19PM (#3481351)
Path came after Timeline.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by Me1000 on Wednesday January 18, 2012 @03:09PM (#3481609)
Path existed at least a year before timeline.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by k-mcgrady on Monday January 23, 2012 @03:25AM (#3499564)
Sorry, I meant Path 2 which more closely resembles Timeline. I don't think there is much similarity between Path 1 and Timeline.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by tylermenezes on Thursday January 19, 2012 @08:58PM (#3487926)
Path being popular ("popular"?) came after timeline. Path existed a long time before timeline.
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by quattrofan on Thursday January 19, 2012 @04:24AM (#3483779)
But its not better and its not prettier, its a mess and one I generally completely avoid. I used to occasionally click on peoples profiles especially if I was considering connecting, now its such an assault on the senses I don't bother. My FB useage as a result is probably declining...
Re:Facebook Timeline is too awful to be an accident by teja1990 on Thursday January 19, 2012 @12:44AM (#3483354)
I don't about the conspiracy behind timeline , but timeline just made it difficult for em to read through my posts , some stay on left some on left. It would be good , if they keep whole month's content on 1side and next on other . It helps me viewing .